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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:00 pm

I guess in rule format it would go something like this:

Restarts are only allowed on the first lap, or during the first 2 minutes of racing, whichever is shorter.

Incidents which can cause a restart: If one driver rear-ends another driver in a braking zone or in a corner, causing damage by contacting a car in front of him with only his front bumper, up to 2 restarts may be implemented at the discretion of the room host. The driver who rear-ended the other must make a pit stop at the start of the race. For standing starts, the driver must make a pit stop on the first lap, and move to the back of the field for the start. This driver will not be allowed to make any passes before his pit stop, with the exception of passing cars that completely leave the racing surface.

Side-by-side contact: In cases of side-by-side contact, up to 2 restarts may be implemented at the discretion of the room host. If both cars make initial contact with more than just the front bumper, it is deemed to be a side-by-side contact, and no penalties will be enforced immediately. However, if the same two drivers are involved in a restart-causing incident for the first AND the second restarts, both drivers must take the pit stop penalty at the start for a rolling start race, or on the first lap on a standing-start race. For standing starts, both drivers will also be moved to the back of their class and cannot improve their position before their first lap pit stop, with the exception of cars that have completely left the racing surface.

Clear lag incidents: If two or more drivers witness and confirm that an incident is clearly caused by lag, up to 2 restarts may be implemented at the discretion of the room host, and no penalties will be given for the first restart. If the same car is involved in incidents on the first 2 starts, and at least 3 drivers confirm that only one car is lagging dangerously, the lagging car must start at the back of its class for the final restart, and will not be allowed to improve his position on the first lap.


Last edited by bigdutyDMomoney on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:10 pm

If you really want to clamp down on the restarts, in cases of side-by-side contact you could simply give a 15 second final-time penalty to both drivers for the first contact instead of letting them slide, which would be added to the pit-stop penalty for the second offense.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:11 pm

What do you guys think of this

If damage occurs during the first lap the driver who cause the damage must start in the back of the pack if their starting position was in the front half of the field (1-4 for gs/gt, 1-8 for st) if the driver is starting in the second half of the field then they must do a drive through penatly heading to the starting line on rolling starts or hold last position for the first lap of a standing start and pit at the end of the lap. If multiple drivers are at fault both drivers must fall to the back with the higher qualing driver starting ahead of the other.


I think it will be pretty easy to find out who the affending driver is and if they refuse to speak up make the penalty far more severe than a normal penalty would be once we can watch the replay and say this is the driver who was at fault
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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:39 pm

I like the idea, and it would work great if we could save the replay before the race is over. However, if the incident does cause a restart, I think it could be very difficult to assign blame definitively in most cases of side-to-side contact. There will probably be witnesses of course, but I feel it can be tough to blame one driver more than the other in many cases, unless you want to use a rule similar to what the SCCA implemented recently, saying that the burden of making a clean pass lies more squarely on the overtaking driver. If you take this to the extreme you could say the overtaking driver is always to blame more than the defending driver. Now that I think about it, I think this might be the easiest way to determine blame. I think it would also reduce the number of restarts as much as possible.
It could very simply go like this:

If contact between two cars causes a restart, the driver who was behind before the contact will take the pit-stop penalty. Brake-checking exception: If the leading driver uses his brakes before nearing a normal braking zone, the leading driver will be found to be at fault, and must take the pit-stop penalty on the restart.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:42 pm

The rule needs to be clear and concise. Not gray or non conclusive. It cannot be based off of conjecture or hopes.

1. The thing that must be realized is that cars get damaged early in real racing and there are no restarts. (The problem here is that a minor contact in Forza can have a major impact on car performance. This is the only reason a restart is even allowed)

2. If the contact is minimal a restart should not be called for. Example would be two drivers bump sides and both get 10% side damage. No restart should be called or needed. This is racing.

3. What I am trying to prevent is the lap 1 aggressiveness that leads to major incidents that involves several cars or heavy impacts due to a racer attempting some crazy maneuver on the first lap.

4. What I see are racers risking it all to make passes on the first lap. I don't see why the racer could race hard, close for the first lap or two while tires warm up, racers settle down, and the race settles in. The first lap is already hectic enough without drivers trying to outbrake half the field into turn 1 from the back of the pack.

5. We ALL must realize we are racing Endurance races. NOT 7 lap sprints. If you are faster than the car in front of you there are lots of laps to attempt and make safe and effective passes.

6. As Admin I must provide an environment that leads to organized and clean racing. That is done through rules. If a rule seems harsh then maybe it will FORCE drivers to think before they get supermanitis on lap 1. Thus achieving the end goal. Good clean starts leading to good racing.

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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:49 pm

Yeah, right now I'm thinking the only clear way to assign blame is to always blame the over-taking driver. This would definitely make people be more careful on the first lap. If you're not 100% sure you can make a pass cleanly, then you shouldn't try it on the first lap. If you can pull all the way up inside someone before a turn, then they really have nothing to gain by trying to squeeze you out, as it will only lead to the two cars bumping doors, helping the inside car make the turn and pushing the outside car even more off the line.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:52 pm

To avoid restarts for minor collisions, "minor" would have to be strictly defined. Since we can't save replays from restarts, there is no way to enforce such a rule. If someone says they have 75% damage, there is no way to prove them wrong without running the race out.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:53 pm

If a racer crashes alone on the first lap or any lap that is tough. That's racing. The racer made an error and paid the price for that error. There should be NO restarts in incidents such as this.

I think if you guys really think this through you would agree that there are really only three ways a restart happens now.
1. Racer who gets hit calls for a restart.
2. Racer hits someone and calls for a restart
3. Major incident involving several racers and lots of racers ask for a restart

In situation #1 when a racer gets hit by another racer and asks for the restart a quick inquiry would be made to find out fault. Witness could verify quickly. The initiator of the incident would simply pull over on the next start and let the rest of his class by and pull up behind the final car in class on the out lap or on a standing start the driver would accelerate from the start then get off line and let the field by and fall in last and continue to race.

In situation #2 the driver at fault admits he screwed up and follows the procedure.

In situation #3 a major incident.. it's simple a restart leaving 1 less restart available.

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Tachyon Racing



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:55 pm

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:
3. What I am trying to prevent is the lap 1 aggressiveness that leads to major incidents that involves several cars or heavy impacts due to a racer attempting some crazy maneuver on the first lap.

4. What I see are racers risking it all to make passes on the first lap. I don't see why the racer could race hard, close for the first lap or two while tires warm up, racers settle down, and the race settles in. The first lap is already hectic enough without drivers trying to outbrake half the field into turn 1 from the back of the pack.

5. We ALL must realize we are racing Endurance races. NOT 7 lap sprints. If you are faster than the car in front of you there are lots of laps to attempt and make safe and effective passes.

I think part of the problem/challenge arises from the entire field not being in a single lobby, where the outcome is simply decided by who crosses first. The fact that people are spread between A, B, C.... creates a mentality of every second counting, i.e.: you may be starting in the B Lobby, but if you can get a good enough time, you'll slot in above some of the A Lobby drivers. This also leads to some hectic outlap driving, as people do not want to waste too much time for the same reasons.

I still think the no restarts except in the case of obvious lag is the best answer. People will be more careful, as they know they will be out of luck if they are too reckless at the start. In my experience here so far, the final restart always goes fine, because everyone knows that's it..... My .02.
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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:00 pm

Oh yeah, even if we could save the replay, damage, especially if it's caused by lag, does not always show the same percentages in the replay as it does while you are driving.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:03 pm

Tach, you are right. It is quite true that the final restart seems to go without a hitch. (food for thought)

A lesson I learn (and have to relearn sometimes) is that I have to race as hard as possible while keeping my fenders and my car free of damage. This one thing alone gives me a shot at a good result. Damage is something I absolutely try to avoid. Late in the race and chasing down someone that's different. Things change and racers will make more moves to take positions late. This is also a fact that happens in any racing. We have to realize that lap 1 cannot MAKE a race. IT CAN'T. It can however ruin your race.

So the restart rule when finalized will hopefully FORCE this clean first lap issue.


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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:10 pm

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:
If a racer crashes alone on the first lap or any lap that is tough. That's racing. The racer made an error and paid the price for that error. There should be NO restarts in incidents such as this.

I think if you guys really think this through you would agree that there are really only three ways a restart happens now.
1. Racer who gets hit calls for a restart.
2. Racer hits someone and calls for a restart
3. Major incident involving several racers and lots of racers ask for a restart

In situation #1 when a racer gets hit by another racer and asks for the restart a quick inquiry would be made to find out fault. Witness could verify quickly. The initiator of the incident would simply pull over on the next start and let the rest of his class by and pull up behind the final car in class on the out lap or on a standing start the driver would accelerate from the start then get off line and let the field by and fall in last and continue to race.

In situation #2 the driver at fault admits he screwed up and follows the procedure.

In situation #3 a major incident.. it's simple a restart leaving 1 less restart available.

I think this would work very well as long as people don't mind speaking up, and as long as they all agree. I would like to think that disagreements would be minimal, but I'm not too sure.

I think we might change the major incident exception though. If someone messes up at the front, and wants a restart, I don't think it would be very hard for them to create a major incident just so the driver can get a free restart. I think if people can agree that one driver caused the major incident, he should still have to take a penalty, even if it causes a major incident. If people are going 3 wide or something and they all come togehter, I can see it being tough to place blame. If a majority of the witnesses can't agree on who's fault it was, only then should no penalties be given.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:11 pm

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:
Tach, you are right. It is quite true that the final restart seems to go without a hitch. (food for thought)

A lesson I learn (and have to relearn sometimes) is that I have to race as hard as possible while keeping my fenders and my car free of damage. This one thing alone gives me a shot at a good result. Damage is something I absolutely try to avoid. Late in the race and chasing down someone that's different. Things change and racers will make more moves to take positions late. This is also a fact that happens in any racing. We have to realize that lap 1 cannot MAKE a race. IT CAN'T. It can however ruin your race.

So the restart rule when finalized will hopefully FORCE this clean first lap issue.


LOL, it's just like my dad used to say, no one has ever won a race in turn 1, but plenty of people have lost the race there.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:17 pm

As a side note. This is the most activity this particular thread has ever seen! lol!

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bigdutyDMomoney



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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:36 pm

lol again. Yeah, the initial wording of this rule just had me really worried. I think I'll have another go at making it more concise and indisputable.

At the discretion of the room host, up to 2 restarts may be implemented, only on the first racing lap, or during the first 2 minutes at Le Mans and Nordschliefe. When a damage causing incident happens during this time, the effected racers may choose to ask the room host for a restart. At least 2 other witnesses must confirm that contact took place. The driver who was behind the other before the incident occurred is deemed to have been more responsible for the contact and will receive a pit-stop penalty.

Pit stop penalty defined: For rolling starts, the driver must make a complete pit stop as the rest of the field starts the race. For standing starts, the driver must make a complete pit stop on his first lap.

Lag exception: 3 witnesses are needed to confirm that lag caused the incident. In this case, the car which has been reported to be lagging will start at the back of its class. If the same car causes another lag incident as confirmed by 3 witnesses, the lagging car will also take the pit-stop penalty.

Multiple car wreck exception: If 3 or more cars are involved, and a majority of the witnesses cannot agree on placing blame, no penalties will be given.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Now we are heading in the right direction bigduty. Still a bit wordy (needs to be more concise) and I feel a PIT PENALTY is a bit much. I feel the back of the pack is effective vs a pit stop.

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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:01 pm

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:
Now we are heading in the right direction bigduty. Still a bit wordy (needs to be more concise) and I feel a PIT PENALTY is a bit much. I feel the back of the pack is effective vs a pit stop.

why not make it a drive-through penalty.

This is done by pressing the start button when the car has entered the pits and is under AI control, keep the game on the menu whilst in the pits and the car will not stop in the pits.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:55 pm

Yeah, cool, makes sense. I dunno about the drive through penalty. I could be wrong but I'm not sure you can get away with that on some tracks. I feel like on some tracks, where you can enter pit road at full speed, like Sunset, it wouldn't be much of a penalty at all.

I guess as long as you qualified in one the the top 3 spots in the lobby, starting at the back is a pretty severe penalty, but I feel like these positions don't often cause restarts anyway. It's really hard to rear-end someone on the first lap if you start on the pole. Smile And it's the guys in the back who have to deal with the accordion affect threatening overlap wrecks as the field bunches up under braking for the first turn...

Also, even the difference from going from 2nd to last compared to going from 3rd to last seems like a significant difference to me. I think in a perfect world it would be a uniform penalty, regardless of where you start. And of course there is still the problem of people who are already starting in the back. Making them do a drive through or a pit instead, kind of makes sense, since like I said above, I think they're most likely to have to deal with issues that can cause a bad wreck, so they need to be even more careful in the first few turns.

Maybe if you cause a restart, you go to the back regardless of where you start. For every position you are off pole to begin with you could add another 2 seconds or so to the final time. So if I start on the pole and cause a restart, I just go to the back with no time penalty. If I start 8th place and cause a restart I still start in the back, but also get a 14 second penalty added to my final time. Just an idea. Hopefully someone else has a better one that would maybe be easier to apply.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:56 am

Restart Rule:
0.1 No Restarts.

Simple and clear.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:01 am

Hiredgun308 wrote:
Restart Rule:
0.1 No Restarts.

Simple and clear.

What he said.... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:08 pm

Tachyon Racing wrote:
Hiredgun308 wrote:
Restart Rule:
0.1 No Restarts.

Simple and clear.

What he said.... Smile

Agreed
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:36 pm

Peader24 wrote:
Tachyon Racing wrote:
Hiredgun308 wrote:
Restart Rule:
0.1 No Restarts.

Simple and clear.

What he said.... Smile

Agreed

+1.... ....last week i could have called a restart and chose not to for the OTHER DRIVERS who ended up having a great race....NO MEANS NO!!!
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:38 pm

One last try:

During the first 2 minutes of racing, the lobby host may allow up to 2 restarts.

The penalty is to start last place in class, and receive a time penalty. The length of the penalty shall equal one second less than the class starting position. (eg: 3rd place = 2 second penalty) For standing starts, the time penalty shall be applied as a roll-off delay.

3 situations:

2 car incident: The car behind the other before the incident will receive the penalty, with the exception of brake-checking. (I can't see anyone doing that, but I didn't want to leave the door open)

3+ cars involved: No penalties unless most witnesses agree that only one driver was at fault.

Lag: No penalties if most witnesses agree that lag was responsible. If the same car causes 2 restarts because it is lagging, it will receive the penalty.
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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:22 pm

Thanks bid duty. I will take what you have and try to work it out to a new clear restart rule.

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PostSubject: Re: THE WEBSITE INFORMATION CENTRAL   Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:53 pm

No problem. Smile I really hope it helps.
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