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 RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps

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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:51 pm

Ok.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:31 pm

chenstrap, i did not see your name anywhere in anything that pronebird had 2 say bro.but anyways i gotta say pred that would be kinda shitty to be running 2 to 3 seconds slower than the front of the field... im not saying he should be as fast as the speed cars but he is right he is cut down pretty bad and with the rest of the tracks on the schedule i dont think he would stand much of a chance at winning the championship, even if he is only 6pts down,even though i think spurtle has this thing wrapped up i still feel pronebird should have at least a fighting chance.... just my 2 cents, and if anyone wants to try and argue with me.....i will kill you!
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:42 pm

gdub369 wrote:
chenstrap, i did not see your name anywhere in anything that pronebird had 2 say bro.but anyways i gotta say pred that would be kinda shitty to be running 2 to 3 seconds slower than the front of the field... im not saying he should be as fast as the speed cars but he is right he is cut down pretty bad and with the rest of the tracks on the schedule i dont think he would stand much of a chance at winning the championship, even if he is only 6pts down,even though i think spurtle has this thing wrapped up i still feel pronebird should have at least a fighting chance.... just my 2 cents, and if anyone wants to try and argue with me.....i will kill you!

I see what Prone is saying. The R.E.W.A.R.D.S system on paper makes sense; adjust the P.I accordingly per type of track/ finish/ experience. Give the power cars more handling when needed and give the handling cars more etc, problem is people will pick one type of car over the others based on P.I sensitivity. Eventually variety will suffer. Very few formulas allow the front of the grid to be more than 110% faster than everybody else talent and tune withstanding. A solution would be to adjust P.I prior to defacto speed tracks and vice versa. Prone shouldn't have a 2-3 second advantage anymore than Spurtle/ Bimmer/ or the Audi's do on a given track. Other than going R3-R2 everybody should be able to add 5-10 P.I after each race depending on finish. The worst that could happen is more competiton from someone other than the usual suspects.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:50 pm

Few photos from the A room Fast 6

A room starting Lineup




Just after a few turns positions are changed up



And a random shot of Metal and Spurtle

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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:39 pm

copied the wrong photo from the forza site for Metal and Spurtle now the site is down
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:34 pm

There is no perfect solution. But I will tell everyone with certainty that the answer is not and will not be adjusting PI every race for EVERY car, or every track car for car. The Forza Sports Car Series has produced some damn good racing. And unfortunately the "usual" suspectS just happen to be some of the fastest drivers no matter what they drive. If I put BIMM3R, Spurtle, (for example only) and a couple others in just about any one else's car with their build they will turn faster laps. They are just damn good drivers.

Folks, the cream of the crop will always rise to the top. Name a series of racing and I guarantee you can look at the grid and find a few drivers who always find a way to finish high up on the grid. That's racing. The sooner you understand this the sooner things make more sense to you. I want to be up in first every race too, I think I am a good racer and driver too and I do know that I have made my own mistakes that kept me out of the top 5 of a few races. Lemme give myself 10,15 pi just so I can be even faster?

I am weary of this debate, you got me back involved. There is no unfairness here in this series. BIMM3R complains to me but then he shuts up and performs on the track. and somehow takes a 690 Porsche and wins or gets a top 3 or top 5...I am done.

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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:33 pm

Admin wrote:
There is no perfect solution. But I will tell everyone with certainty that the answer is not and will not be adjusting PI every race for EVERY car, or every track car for car. The Forza Sports Car Series has produced some damn good racing. And unfortunately the "usual" suspectS just happen to be some of the fastest drivers no matter what they drive. If I put BIMM3R, Spurtle, (for example only) and a couple others in just about any one else's car with their build they will turn faster laps. They are just damn good drivers.

Folks, the cream of the crop will always rise to the top. Name a series of racing and I guarantee you can look at the grid and find a few drivers who always find a way to finish high up on the grid. That's racing. The sooner you understand this the sooner things make more sense to you. I want to be up in first every race too, I think I am a good racer and driver too and I do know that I have made my own mistakes that kept me out of the top 5 of a few races. Lemme give myself 10,15 pi just so I can be even faster?

I am weary of this debate, you got me back involved. There is no unfairness here in this series. BIMM3R complains to me but then he shuts up and performs on the track. and somehow takes a 690 Porsche and wins or gets a top 3 or top 5...I am done.


Lighten up if your going to be both stuart and racer there needs to be some objective mechanism to deal with grievences.
I am not asking for anything other than the right to have an opinion. Your asking people to dedicate themselves to your series and rules, putting in the hours to be competitve week to week the least you could do is acknowledge the mans situation. I follow racing and have for 30 years, there are no series that consistantly produce the same front runners with the exception of F1. SPEED World Championship, FIA, ALMS, all approach parity simular to your system.They enforce it on a more regular basis. When ALMS allowed Saleens S7's they over resticted them and took away their rear wing. They suffered at LeMans, the engineers apealed the next race they changed the spec. ProDrive Ferrari 575 went through the same thing. Its a car thing its not always a driver thing. Just sayin, PEACE
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:25 pm

I know Science. I tried to keep it completely objective. I always do. I guess I got a little fed up there for a second. I know I cannot please everyone and I do my best to make it fair for all involved. When I look at the big picture and compare it to what my experience has been here with this series and other real racing not only that I have seen but that I have participated in I see my own points clearly. But when others don't see it I got a little frustrated. I can't see simply adjusting PI on a car ANY car simply because we have come to a track that doesn't suit that cars strengths and exposes it's weaknesses. And it bothers me a bit that it is from someone who has been points leader on and off for most of the season.

And to your point directly I know exactly the events you are talking about with the ALMS and the SWC. Those cars were handicapped so bad they couldn't compete on any track. If we use the car and driver we are specifically talking about...Sedona a speed track for sure he was able to get pole and if not for his own mistakes would have finished higher than 6th (which really is NOT a bad finish) Then on to Twin Ring which really is basically a point and shoot track that favors the AWD car....then favors the HP car more than a light car with low HP and great handling. The ONLY track that really presented any real disparity. Now we are on to a track that is not point and shoot that is momentum based but does have speed and a bit of handling. I just feel the argument is coming from someone who wants a car that can dominate every race so he can win every race. It's a Season. I cannot and will not set it up so that one person will win every race. That in and of itself makes people want to quit. When BIMM3R won three in a row I was scrambling trying to even things out. When the dust settled it got better, he didn't care for what I did, but in the end of it all it produced some darn good racing without the runaways. I still hear it from many drivers on occasion and I listen. Then I go watch the actual racing, take my notes, compare those to previous race notes, mistakes made crashes that occured that affected the outcome, bad downshifts that hurt the motor that then affected the outcome...I look at ALL of that stuff before I determine changes. The driver who is stirring this pot did this same mess last season then quit. I hold no grudge and let him race this season because with me it's about the racing not personal.


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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:33 pm

I think the REWARDS system would be a lot better if it was done in a way that the better drivers had their PI lowered, while the lesser drivers had their PI raised. A way to make it so an average driver running an average lap would be at 700PI, and the better drivers would have their PI lowered just as much as a lesser driver had their PI raised. The way it works now is there is a definite PI creep from 700PI to about 725PI as the average baseline PI.

As an example, currently BIMM3R and I run the same cars but he's at 690 and I am at 760. All things being equal, this would mean that the base PI would be 725 instead of the 700 we started with. If the base PI wanted to be kept at 700, then the PI's (working mathematically, I know it works differently when the game mechanics are brought into forcus) would be 665 and 735.

My point being, I think the system is broken in the way you use it. You throw PI at lesser drivers and hope the extra horsepower helps them, when you should be looking to lower the PI of the better drivers while also throwing some extra PI at the lesser drivers. I know this would mean a hell of a lot more work to keep everything balanced (essentially, re-doing PI numbers for everyone each week), but I also think it would keep the competition even closer than it is now, and eventually you would figure out a good PI difference (+/-) for each driver.

Basically, I can't get my thoughts through correctly, but the system as designed works but as implemented is kinda broken.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:29 pm

I do not feel it is fair to penalize drivers for being good to bring them down to a driver who is less capable. That again is not how racing works. The ONLY goal is to even the cars out and make them even then adjust from there. If a driver cannot keep up with a car that has so much more potential than someone driving the same car that is a different problem. The only real goal of racing is to try to balance the cars and let the drivers fall where their skill set lets them fall. In this series I try to do a bit of both and that is where some of this situation comes from. It is not the point to make slow drivers fast and fast drivers slow. I do not agree with that philosophy.

For those who have been in this series for a while they now my goal is to try to get the times close to ALMS GT times for the front runners and for the tracks that they run and we run in this series we are pretty darn close throughout the field. I have accomplished that goal.

Edit: That balance is over the course of a season. NOT a track by track level of adjustments.
Even the World Challenge series will only go so far to increase a cars potential or slow down another. There are set limits on both because they now the same thing that I explained above.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:14 am

i think pred has mostly got it right, its ALOT of hard work to get the P.I correct as it can always come out a different outcome, but pred doesnt want to give P.I that drivers are passing other drivers that have alot more skill then them, he just wants to tighten up the field, so instead of the cars having a second or two gap between them so most people are just hot lapping and dont get a real battle, he wants the cars to have barely a gap between them so they can battle and have a little racing fight between the cars, that way its alot more fun and i think you can progress as a driver loads more quicker.

as i am a F1 fan, i normally watch all the F1 races and keep track of the points and rules, i know the rules are alot different to this, but with F1 if you watch it and keep your eye on most drivers, sometimes you will see improvements and people react different the longer theyre in F1, so what im saying is i see it here, ive seen people get better drivers coming into this series, mostly down to how pred does the P.I, i watch the points for this series every time there is a change and i naturally remember the distance betwee points of most people, and i see all over the field people moving and mostly what i see is most people are in the position of what i rate them at (unless they have missed races which changes things about) personally i think prone could of dominated the series if he made no mistakes at the handling tracks, but he didnt take 100% advantage when he could of all the time and thats racing so even though he is 3rd that is still a big achievement and i dont think at any chance he has now got no chance of winning, he still has a chance because i think he can drive the lotus better around nurburg than spurtle can with his bugatti, i just think the car is better around there and the bugatti even though it has horsepower i personally think it lacks that coming out of corners as its not a very good handling car and i think that would slow him down alot on nurburg, so if prone runs every thing right, gets a half decent finish at road america, and stays on at catalunya i wouldnt be surprised if he is still not far from the top.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:37 am

My point is why is it all about him winning or losing. From what I see it's fair across the board. There are 40 racers (25avg per race) that are just as important. He gets no special treatments even as those I call friends dont.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:55 pm

Admin wrote:
I know Science. I tried to keep it completely objective. I always do. I guess I got a little fed up there for a second. I know I cannot please everyone and I do my best to make it fair for all involved. When I look at the big picture and compare it to what my experience has been here with this series and other real racing not only that I have seen but that I have participated in I see my own points clearly. But when others don't see it I got a little frustrated. I can't see simply adjusting PI on a car ANY car simply because we have come to a track that doesn't suit that cars strengths and exposes it's weaknesses. And it bothers me a bit that it is from someone who has been points leader on and off for most of the season.

And to your point directly I know exactly the events you are talking about with the ALMS and the SWC. Those cars were handicapped so bad they couldn't compete on any track. If we use the car and driver we are specifically talking about...Sedona a speed track for sure he was able to get pole and if not for his own mistakes would have finished higher than 6th (which really is NOT a bad finish) Then on to Twin Ring which really is basically a point and shoot track that favors the AWD car....then favors the HP car more than a light car with low HP and great handling. The ONLY track that really presented any real disparity. Now we are on to a track that is not point and shoot that is momentum based but does have speed and a bit of handling. I just feel the argument is coming from someone who wants a car that can dominate every race so he can win every race. It's a Season. I cannot and will not set it up so that one person will win every race. That in and of itself makes people want to quit. When BIMM3R won three in a row I was scrambling trying to even things out. When the dust settled it got better, he didn't care for what I did, but in the end of it all it produced some darn good racing without the runaways. I still hear it from many drivers on occasion and I listen. Then I go watch the actual racing, take my notes, compare those to previous race notes, mistakes made crashes that occured that affected the outcome, bad downshifts that hurt the motor that then affected the outcome...I look at ALL of that stuff before I determine changes. The driver who is stirring this pot did this same mess last season then quit. I hold no grudge and let him race this season because with me it's about the racing not personal.


Well said, no one can accuse you of being unfair,I know your pain I used to race slotcars for years and I cant remember a season without conflict, lots of conflict. The P.I deal will play itself out as a suggestion create a commitee of driver/stuarts to handle these situations. You can only do so much. BTW I enjoy the series.

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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:04 pm

The site is updated. There are some items that are not changed due to the Forza servers not working all day yesterday for me. I could not load up pictures or get a replay resent to me after it somehow mysteriously disappeared from my replays. When I get back to the house this evening I will attempt to update again.

Admin.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:19 am

I still cannot get A room replay or put pictures on my storefront. I will have to just post the written recap this evening and post the replay video also on the website. Hope this gets rectified soon.
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PostSubject: Re: RACE 9 Twin Ring Motegi 35 Laps   Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:58 pm

THE WEBSITE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY UPDATED.
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