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 New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?

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Should there be an LMP class for upcoming seasons?
Yes! There should be an LMP Class!
56%
 56% [ 15 ]
No! There shouldnt be an LMP Class!
44%
 44% [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 27
 

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bLuEsMoKe305

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PostSubject: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:31 pm



With Road Atlanta right around te corner and LeMans shortly after the same question that has been floating around for the past months has been coming to thought lately. Two classes of cars share the same racetrack here at the Forzascs, and its understood that the Forzascs is a sports car series, but! Could this amazing series see the coming of one more class for upcoming seasons ? Could the forzascs host races where Three classes share the same circut ... GTC , GT, and LMP. So id like to ask everyone ! Leave a comment

Do you favor a LMP class and why?
  Or  Do you oppose to an LMP class and why? 

To make it more statistical, enter a vote in the poll above.


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No1 Tommy Smurf

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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:05 pm

I oppose this for the following reasons

1. too many classes in a lobby - 3 classes between 16 cars will make for very small groups of cars racing together andhard to organise cleanly (e.g. sixteen divided by two = eight, how would you do that fairly with three classes)

2. traffic - it will cause even more trouble for GTC drivers who only just manage with GT cars storming in (how do you think we will cope with LMP cars that can go through corners so much faster than us and dominate the track especially around tracks like bermese alps)

3. fun - it will make it much more challenging to have a good battle to occur because GTC drivers will get cut up mid stream by GT and LMP and GT will get cut up by GTC and LMP drivers trying to get by. (last time i saw them race in the flesh they ruined the race because they kept on cutting up lower class cars and forcing gaps between these cars)

3. speed - these cars are so much faster than the S class cars and the R3 class cars in the series (closing down speeds will be dangerous)

4 cars - lack of choice in R1 because of them being so extreme meaning that barely any R2 cars could be upgraded to compete effectively against these cars

My personal Opinion

if a 3rd class is going to happen I would say not to bother with R1 cars (LMP cars) and have the R2 class cars instead because the speed levels are greater than GT and of course GTC but the speed levels overall won't be too drastic from these and plus the R2 cars are similar to both GT and GTC because of them mostly being full of old le-mans cars, DTM and Super GT. (for instance Chevorlet corvette is available in both GTC, GT and R2)

This in my opinion will make it more interesting and will enable spectators of R2 (people who are not in the same class as R2) more easily root for certain cars . For instance in GT I do not follow it much but always like it when ferrari's are beaten Very Happy (sorry couldn't resist that Ferrari Fans)

with LMP cars its much harder to do that because of their being so much less manufacturers available realistically. It would also enable certain R3 cars that able to take part in R2 and be competitive when in R3 they would not because of not enough PI or penalties in place on these cars)

Also this to me follows more what Forza Sports Car Series is about, cars that are based on road legal cars competing against each other. not fully fledged racing cars like Audi R15 or the Peugeot 908.

(sorry for the essay just cannot stand R1 cars especially in GT series racing they ruin races constantly)
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:43 pm

Since you started this post I will break the classes down how they will work IF either of them make it to Season 9.

LMP Spec - This class will be a class with a single spec car with a Spec PI only suspension tune allowed. To qualify to be able to race in this class a racer will have to be able to meet a minimum lap time on a specific track.

GTX or GT2 - This is the more likely class to be included. This is a class of cars that will start at a PI of MOST LIKELY 800. HP limit will be set at 850.

Both classes are not final and still in development.

I would ask to include the GT2/GTX class in your survey.

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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:18 pm

the other series i race im in their is four classes LMP1,LMP2,GTE,GTC and the are all in the same lobby Evil or Very Mad and the lmp cars brake up the battles beween gte and gtc and they can couse crashes as well. i agree with tommy and i think the R2 class cars should be added.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:28 pm

Another GT class starting at 800 would be a horrible horrible idea.

Let's use some common sense here. The reason our classes work now is we have a gap of around 100 Pi between them. It is just enough that the classes don't interfere with each other too much.

Adding another GtX class with only a 50 PI gap is only going to generate lap times a couple of seconds quicker than GT. Meaning that it will be extremely hard for GT and this GTX class to race. The lap times would be way too close to each other and it would be a mess. There should be at mimimun a 100 PI gap between the classes.


If you are worried about closing rate then I'd suggest testing the Chevy Oreca or a slower LMP car and absolutely having a driver test to qualify for the class.

I have a ton of experience with LMP cars to tell you that a good driver that knows what he is doing will not run over the GTC guys or the GT guys.

You then split the rooms likely like this

LMP 4
GT 6
GTC 6

You will likely not have many LMP guys in the class thus no need for a ton of them in each lobby. If this series is loosely based off of ALMS an LMP class is the only way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:57 pm

but SSRT prone bird if not many people will run LMP cars whats the point of having them in the series if its only going to be say 10 people running that class all season. (not including the 50% drop off that tends to happen during the season)

and i can say from experience in GTC some GT cars do get extremely close to or having contact with GTC cars, so imagine whats to going to happen with those LMP cars when they come rocking up to these cars with over 200PI than GT cars let alone GTC. (I have had to do avoidance action mid corner because of GT drivers not informing me they are going for the overtake and for lapping in dangerous locations)

However I do think your right that no to minimum of 800 PI on GTX/GT2 it should be 835 (following the pattern currently in the series with 100 PI gap between each class (GTC 635, GT 735, GT2/GTX 835) so that it keeps a same gap difference between GTX, GT and GTC (so no closing over in the same lobby like your very well noted)
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:00 pm

SSRT_Pronebird wrote:
Another GT class starting at 800 would be a horrible horrible idea.

Let's use some common sense here. The reason our classes work now is we have a gap of around 100 Pi between them. It is just enough that the classes don't interfere with each other too much.

Adding another GtX class with only a 50 PI gap is only going to generate lap times a couple of seconds quicker than GT. Meaning that it will be extremely hard for GT and this GTX class to race. The lap times would be way too close to each other and it would be a mess. There should be at mimimun a 100 PI gap between the classes.


If you are worried about closing rate then I'd suggest testing the Chevy Oreca or a slower LMP car and absolutely having a driver test to qualify for the class.

I have a ton of experience with LMP cars to tell you that a good driver that knows what he is doing will not run over the GTC guys or the GT guys.

You then split the rooms likely like this

LMP 4
GT 6
GTC 6

You will likely not have many LMP guys in the class thus no need for a ton of them in each lobby. If this series is loosely based off of ALMS an LMP class is the only way to go.

This is the best argument I've heard. That sounds like the best solution to me. Testing to be able to race in LMP is the best way to go about it. That way they don't wreck everyone else. This could make things very interesting next season.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:07 pm

I see where you're coming from Tommy but its up to the driver to call out a pass and be reasonable about where to pass. Most GT guys are good about that and some are not. That should be considered when entering LMP. Make sure they know to call out passes and be responsible. If not penalties then expulsion if they don't drive like they are supposed to. Its not hard to be patient and be courteous. Some people just aren't that way and they should be left out if they don't behave.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:13 pm

Another option worth exploring is creating a true spec class. Make the current GT and GTC classes into GT1 and GT2 and create a new GTC class with one car choice and a set PI. That way, racing within that class will be true skill only with only minor tweaks for tuning. I think it has been brought up before but I thought I would re-introduce the idea in this post.

If we are going to use an LMP class, instead of having drivers test their way into LMP by way of time, maybe just force them to race in the pre-season race to test how safe they are with other, lower class cars.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:52 pm

JUST MY THOUGHT....I don't think calling out a pass is critical or even needed. I have raced with my mic off for 7 1/2 seasons and it has caused me no problems so far. I just feel that if you think out your pass before you attempt it usually things work out ok. I just feel its about experience and paying attention.

The SPEC class would be the LMP class.

As per Pronebirds 'common sense' comment. Nothing has been firmed up yet. Testing is still being done and plenty of time to finalize the next direction this series takes. Perhaps a PI start of 825 is also a possibility. I have tested a few variations of GTX/GT2.



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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:38 pm

Hmm. While they would be exciting i think that 4,6,6 would be the best bet. Honestly i am best at Bclass, and so higher and higherPI cars are harder and harder to drive for me. so personally i would really have to practice hard if i wanted to race a 735 GT car let alone a 835 or 800 GTX. I like the pace and speed of gtc so it would be a shame to drop it off as i already had plans to stick with it for next season. :/

However as far as logistics go. 4 max 2 min per lobby of lmp simply because if there are too many types of cars than there is no racing only individual time trials with the occasional side by side here or there. i do like the idea of added traffic because it would create a more real element to is as there is always some sort of prototype. but idk. personally adding pi only narrows down the competitive drivers that could be found and added since no amateur is going to think "hey 835PI no prob let do it" and if they do then it might be really really bad for them or someone near them. Plus you dont want to drop a rookie into a seat like that, there needs to be a growth division, dont you think? Im not that great, even at gtc, but i know that if i went into GT it would be a mess lol.

Also as for the LMP I'd say pick the slowest/lowest PI one. Simply because that way you could bridge the gap better. Idea. How about bumping gtc to 650/675 (since alot of cars end up past that anyways) and then bumping GT to 750/775. now everything is a lil bit faster off the bat, and with PI adjustments they will most certainly speed up (700PI, 800PI) now you have medians rather than deleting and adding or trying to force too much. then you get a 900's LMP and you are able to continue the approximate 100PI split allowing for the same types of closing rates. Bumping up the Pi by 15-35 would also open up each class to more cars that are just under or just over the Pi's for each.

Also. Driver's need to have some sort of previous qualification. Maybe offer it to past champions/top3 and then from there anyone else has to be able to race cleanly and competently with you or an approved driver.

But as a new guy I'm loving the league, I'd trust the judgement and direction for next season. Howeve Do you have a backup plan? If things are a disaster after say 2 races. Or there arent enough LMP's due to drop outs (now this really sounds like ALMS...)
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:10 pm

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:
Also as for the LMP I'd say pick the slowest/lowest PI one. Simply because that way you could bridge the gap better. Idea. How about bumping gtc to 650/675 (since alot of cars end up past that anyways) and then bumping GT to 750/775. now everything is a lil bit faster off the bat, and with PI adjustments they will most certainly speed up (700PI, 800PI) now you have medians rather than deleting and adding or trying to force too much. then you get a 900's LMP and you are able to continue the approximate 100PI split allowing for the same types of closing rates. Bumping up the Pi by 15-35 would also open up each class to more cars that are just under or just over the Pi's for each.

GT's PI is (too) high enough as it is already, any higher and you start to have issues, personally from experience in past seasons having the base PI at 705 was just about perfect for a good majority of the cars. Since it's at 735, some cars (street corvettes come to mind) are just about useless and uncompetitive, so bumping the PI to 750/775 would just make things worse and more cars would be undrivable with the ridiculous amounts of horsepower (kind of like driving the Venom with no rear wing). You also start getting into the racecar territory and you lose the verity of cars that Pred has been going for.

As for the people complaining about closing speeds with higher PI cars, the LMP class have some of the best brakes in the game, so in comparison to the GT class the closing speeds are just about the same. As for the LMPC cars, they are better in the turns and braking zones, as they are a little slower than most of the street GT cars in a straight line.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:15 pm

Personally I don't have a problem with a lmp class. I ran in a series back in forza 3 where gt and lmp were combined and it made for some great racing. It's pretty neat watching the lmp's fly by you. But like everyone else said, only select people are allowed to run them. Series veterans only, no rookies. While I think the addition of lmp is a great idea, there is also a great responsibility that the lmp drivers have to deal with. And pretty much everything fender said is 100% true. Any more pi to the gt class and half the cars will become undrivable.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:55 pm

For LMP i'd say use the P2 Lola (stock build) or possibly the LMPC cars.

I agree with Fender on the GT PI. You raise the GT PI higher and the field will just end up being supercars or race cars. The only way i'd raise the GT PI would be to make the field all race cars. The problem with the race cars is that it's hard to balance PI with them. We tried running a GT3 race car setup in our last season of FWC, didn't have enough people sign up but the practice races we did were pretty competitive.

As for GTC, I think the car list in this class is too open. As many GTC drivers there are in the series, their races always seem to get very spread out. I think this class should have a hand picked selection of say 10 cars that are relativity even. It'll put the class into a more level playing field. I say this cause I think part of the problem with GTC cars now is that a lot of them are pretty much bullet cars that are hard to control in the turns.

I guess if I was to structure the classes it would be:

LMP - based on ALMS P2 class (or LMPC)
GT - based on ALMS GT cars
GTC - based on Grand Am GT class

I agree with prone on the room splits (4-6-6). The only problem I see with adding LMP is I think mostly GT class guys would drive them, leaving the GT class pretty small unless some GTC guys step up.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:49 pm

Boostbeef wrote:
For LMP i'd say use the P2 Lola (stock build) or possibly the LMPC cars.

I agree with Fender on the GT PI. You raise the GT PI higher and the field will just end up being supercars or race cars. The only way i'd raise the GT PI would be to make the field all race cars. The problem with the race cars is that it's hard to balance PI with them. We tried running a GT3 race car setup in our last season of FWC, didn't have enough people sign up but the practice races we did were pretty competitive.

As for GTC, I think the car list in this class is too open. As many GTC drivers there are in the series, their races always seem to get very spread out. I think this class should have a hand picked selection of say 10 cars that are relativity even. It'll put the class into a more level playing field. I say this cause I think part of the problem with GTC cars now is that a lot of them are pretty much bullet cars that are hard to control in the turns.

I guess if I was to structure the classes it would be:

LMP - based on ALMS P2 class (or LMPC)
GT - based on ALMS GT cars
GTC - based on Grand Am GT class

I agree with prone on the room splits (4-6-6). The only problem I see with adding LMP is I think mostly GT class guys would drive them, leaving the GT class pretty small unless some GTC guys step up.

Boost echoed what I would say.

Edit: Something that may not seem like a big deal to anyone; The C in GTC stands for 'Challenge' and challenge in this kind of series means spec cars. The way the classes are right now, most GT cars are more GT1 kinda power and weight (Save for the real ALMS race cars, thanks to downforce) and the GTC class is more like GT2 or GT3 specs, or a generic 'GTS' title, which would fit better for this series.

I know it may seem picky, but it's always bugged me that the GTC class really has nothing at all to do with the real GTC class. I'd love to see an LMP or some other spec class, even if I may or may not run it.

Also, on the note of one class holding up one or the other... If both drivers involved practice basic race craft, the most anyone one should be 'held up' is a tenth or two. If you can't work with it, or make it work for you, then get out of multi-class racing. A Le Mans series without an LMP class is just an GT series. The only GTC I really had to pass at Camino was Oddball, but because I timed things right, placed my car where and when I needed to, not only was I able to get by without slowing him down but I was able to slow down LSA a little bit, giving me breathing room for the rest of the lap and making him push harder which could have made him make a mistake.

Night. (That little edit turned out way bigger then I had planned.) Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:32 am

Great debate and conversation. BUT the GTC & GT class are not up for any change. What may occur is a LMP or a GTX/GT2 class. The 4/6/6 ratio is the easiest ratio and what I mentioned a few weeks back. I do still have concern for watering down the classes/racing by having less of each class on track. I am excited by the interest in what may be next in The Forza Sports Car Series. I do however want to cool the fire a bit and just say it is possible that a new class may not be introduced.

SSRT DWilk your assessment is fairly true and on point and I agree for the most part on the GTC and GT classes. But the main objective for this Sports Car Series has always been and will always be diversity. An ALMSesque GTC class removes that diversity by running only 1 spec car. Hmmm, maybe instead of LMP or a GT2/GTX class we could see a GTS CLASS. GTS the S meaning Spec..... Hmmmm

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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:57 am

What about screwing this all and putting a touring car class in that starts at 535? just saying. the biggest way to create diversity to me seems fwd or even an awd class.
BUT if that didnt happen i'd love to run one of those gt2 cars. lmp isnt really my scene.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:43 am

oddball7000 wrote:
What about screwing this all and putting a touring car class in that starts at 535? just saying. the biggest way to create diversity to me seems fwd or even an awd class.
BUT if that didnt happen i'd love to run one of those gt2 cars. lmp isnt really my scene.

I agree if I had the choice I wouldn't say no to GT2 but I would say no to LMP (do not like driving them tbh)
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:41 am

I could get behind a spec series. Just have to make sure that it doesn't interfere with the other two classes.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:53 am

hmmm i know pred said above that the whole gt gtc debate isnt what this is about but, the idea of having it be GrandAm GT and ALMS GT isnt too bad but i will say that grand am gt doesnt really have much aero so that would make it alot different. also at 635 with non forza aero in a camaro i could hit about a second off of the gt times at Indy. so i would assume that they are already kind of at the PI for that series.

BUT bck to lmp. i would say go with LMPC? maybe? or maybe have a trial run with it. see how it goes. make those races optional for gt/gtc and then if it goes well add them to regularly scheduled races? just trying to throw out as many ideas as i can. Also having a GT2/GTX class instead of LMP would be neat but wouldnt it feel like another gt class with more horsepower? or would that be exclusively racecars?
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:42 pm

I say R2 class
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:56 pm

oddball7000 wrote:
What about screwing this all and putting a touring car class in that starts at 535? just saying. the biggest way to create diversity to me seems fwd or even an awd class.
BUT if that didnt happen i'd love to run one of those gt2 cars. lmp isnt really my scene.

Best idea yet. The touring cars would be the best option (IMO) because it would give the closest racing. Having a lower class of even closer racing than gtc would be perfect. I've run a few touring car series and to me they give the best racing. All of the cars are so close that there isn't a time that you are racing alone. Even in gtc at some of the larger tracks racing can get lonely. Throw in an even higher class and the field just gets that much more spread out.

That's just my two cents. I do this for the competition and fun just as much as to win. Nothing beats a close race and victory.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:53 pm

Dr PiiHB wrote:
oddball7000 wrote:
What about screwing this all and putting a touring car class in that starts at 535? just saying. the biggest way to create diversity to me seems fwd or even an awd class.
BUT if that didnt happen i'd love to run one of those gt2 cars. lmp isnt really my scene.

Best idea yet. The touring cars would be the best option (IMO) because it would give the closest racing. Having a lower class of even closer racing than gtc would be perfect. I've run a few touring car series and to me they give the best racing. All of the cars are so close that there isn't a time that you are racing alone. Even in gtc at some of the larger tracks racing can get lonely. Throw in an even higher class and the field just gets that much more spread out.

That's just my two cents. I do this for the competition and fun just as much as to win. Nothing beats a close race and victory.

I would vote yes in favor of a 535 class and i would be torn on whether to run that or gtc.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:17 am

If you add lmp they will be running a lot faster than other cars obviously but that means they will finish like an hour before everyone and we would all have to deal with a. I. drivers for like half the race. Plus with speeds they will be hitting on some tracks it will cause a lot of wrecks with them coming up on the gtc cars so fast.
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PostSubject: Re: New Racing class for upcoming seasons ?    Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:11 pm

BMEAZY II wrote:
If you add lmp they will be running a lot faster than other cars obviously but that means they will finish like an hour before everyone and we would all have to deal with a. I. drivers for like half the race. Plus with speeds they will be hitting on some tracks it will cause a lot of wrecks with them coming up on the gtc cars so fast.

You all underestimate the quality of some of the drivers in this series.
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