In reply....

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

No need for the "race" version.

Then there's no need for 2 R8's, 3 C6's, 2 F430's, 3 599's, 2 458's, 3 Gallardo's and 2 911's . Not even going into GTC. And it seems like there is damn near every ALMS car except the new Viper, and going back 2 model generations to get into a race variant of the Viper makes no sense.

So in that case, until such a time that the '13 Viper GTS-R race car is made available, I'm sitting out.

It seems like you are in between what cars are available and it just so happens the car I planned on running since it came out is one of the only ones left unavailable. There's no hard feelings, that's just how I feel about the situation.

Before anyone else comments I'm gonna say I stick by my teammate and will also sit out if it comes down to that.

What is the cause for this nonsence. Balanced cars = Competition, Allow Toby (Racecar Viper) to run lol

Thread to be deleted soon.

Each of those cars you have mentioned has a distinct difference from the other. The R8's are clearly different from one another. Both the 430 and the F430 Scuderia are obviously different variants but both street cars we turn into race cars like 99% of the cars in this series. Also the Scuderia version is NOT available to everyone. All 3 599 are each very different from the other and each are again street cars we turn into race cars. same with both 458's except one is a spec race car based of a slightly modified street version and it also fits perfectly into the GT class performance and PI wise. They are different than one another and present different dynamics just as the other cars you mention. They are similar but are in essence different cars.

This series is NOT ONLY ALMS based, it has elements of Pirelli World Challenge as well. The ONLY reason the few "race Specific" versions are allowed is because that particular manufacture has no car to represent it in GT Class ie BMW, Jaguar. The two Corvettes in GT are good cars but Forza did not do them completely fairly once upgraded they are a bit deficient and it would take a very highly skilled driver to truly be able to compete in GT with them. They (both corvettes) also are very limited in PIRS adjustment. For that reason only The race ZR1 is sanctioned to race. The other manufacturers have cars that are all very viable and competitive cars within the series rules and goals. The Viper GTS is a VERY capable car and has obviously proven that. It also has plenty of room for PIRS adjustment. There is no need for the Race specific version of the Viper. None. The GTS is a perfect fit for this series.

I feel JUST AS STRONGLY AS YOU on this issue. I am not interested in having all the dedicated race cars filter in to GT. That is not how this series started and is not in the interest of the direction I want to take it. Why would anyone pick the street version of a car and turn it into a race car if they had a choice to choose the race version? I hear your argument, however the logic I have given for the reason the very few Race versions allowed is sound and is firm.

Also you should hit F5 that old race viper at 735 is gone.

Admin

The GTS and GTS-R are both just as different as all the cars mentioned above. That's why your argument makes no sense. But, if that's the way it is, then that's the why it is. Go ahead and delete the thread.

Adiós.

With the Viper it is not about difference of the two. None at all. It's about a need to have that "race version" Is there another car or cars that can represent that manufacturer in GT that prevents the NEED for a substitute car.... Yes there is a perfectly viable GT representative car in the GTS so there is NO NEED to have the Race Version sanctioned in.
Please re-read. I think you must have missed this whole paragraph.

The two Corvettes in GT are good cars but Forza did not do them completely fairly once upgraded they are a bit deficient and it would take a very highly skilled driver to truly be able to compete in GT with them. They (both corvettes) also are very limited in PIRS adjustment. For that reason only The race ZR1 is sanctioned to race. The other manufacturers have cars that are all very viable and competitive cars within the series rules and goals. The Viper GTS is a VERY capable car and has obviously proven that. It also has plenty of room for PIRS adjustment. There is no need for the Race specific version of the Viper. None. The GTS is a perfect fit for this series.

You could say the same for the ford gt, it is also at its limit and very little pi room but there is no ford gt race car.

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

Each of those cars you have mentioned has a distinct difference from the other, and present different dynamics just as the other cars you mention.

The two Corvettes in GT are good cars but Forza did not do them completely fairly once upgraded they are a bit deficient and it would take a very highly skilled driver to truly be able to compete in GT with them. They (both corvettes) also are very limited in PIRS adjustment. For that reason only The race ZR1 is sanctioned to race. The other manufacturers have cars that are all very viable and competitive cars within the series rules and goals. The Viper GTS is a VERY capable car and has obviously proven that. It also has plenty of room for PIRS adjustment. There is no need for the Race specific version of the Viper. None. The GTS is a perfect fit for this series.

Viper Race car is very different than the GTS...
Z06 is better suited for the PI than the ZR1...
So Limiting the competition because of Capability of other models, you just described the capabilities of so many other car models whats so special with this one?????....

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

I feel JUST AS STRONGLY AS YOU on this issue. I am not interested in having all the dedicated race cars filter in to GT. That is not how this series started

The series Started at 705 and balanced to 715, now its so high I and some others NEED the race cars to keep this unbalanced PI somewhat Balanced....

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

I hear your argument, however the logic I have given for the reason the very few Race versions allowed is sound and is firm.

as a pillow?


I am kind of all for Race specific GT. However this isn't my series, although I feel as if I own stock....

to simplify street corvettes = not good at GT PI. Street Viper GTS = very good at GT PI (Saves the trouble of writing out a whole paragraph over and over again)

SSRT DWilkerson wrote:

Then there's no need for 2 R8's, 3 C6's, 2 F430's, 3 599's, 2 458's, 3 Gallardo's and 2 911's . Not even going into GTC.

They are all the same model, just different trim levels. For example, the R8 street car and LMS are just a different as the Vipers, but if you are going by that rule then there is no need for both of them. Same with all the other cars said there. I did not miss anything you have posted, that's why this is confusing to me. And FYI, the '13 Viper GTS was a pig of a car and was terrible to drive. The only reason I drove it was because it looked good.

It was fast because Prone, Boost and Myself drove it, and, aside from the ACR, no one has ever done good with a Viper in this series in FM4. (We don't count Matt and Bimmer, because they're freaks. )

Sainted...at least someone 'gets it"

Now on to the Ford GT. Ford no longer even makes a proper GT Car for the likes of ALMS racing. The Mustang aint it. The Ford GT in Forza 4 has a PI of 761 which could be adjusted to 759 which is simply too high to be a starting PI. Hence no Ford GT.

as for the PI starting at 715 back on Forza 3. On Forza 3 at 715 we ran times equivalent to what we now run with a base of 735 on Forza 4. Target time is close to ALMS times. we are right on on some tracks and still a little off on others. I have accepted that it cannot be perfect so thats that. 715 on Forza 4 is considerable slower laps than that same 715 on F3.

Unbalanced PI? Really, explain how 5 to 8 to 10 cars which are all very different and with different driver skill and different peripherals all can qualify within .03 many times and within a second nearly every time?! That is closer than ALMS AND PWC qualifying and most any other race series that comes to mind. The on track racing is extremely close every race between the same wide variety of cars, drivers etc.. The final points at the end of 12 races 10, 20, 30 points separate champions from being 1st or 3rd. Every aspect of the racing proves CLEARLY the PI System works! It is not perfect. Nothing can ever be. The PI system here works Damn good.

Nope not firm as a Pillow. Firm as is a 62 ton Tank

SSRT DWilkerson wrote:

It was fast because Prone, Boost and Myself drove it, and, aside from the ACR, no one has ever done good with a Viper in this series in FM4. (We don't count Matt and Bimmer, because they're freaks. )

How would we know that since you and the names mentioned are the only ones who have driven one for a season? Furthermore, if someone else was off 'your pace' in the GTS there is Plenty of room to equalize with PI.

You can keep going back to the differences of the Audi's or Honda's or etc...This is and has always been about the ability to choose from several variants of cars. Street cars, turned into and developed into race cars. NEVER about the race versions of cars. Those cars are there ONLY ONLY for the reason given to keep a manufacture that otherwise has no representation in the class. The difference between the two Vipers is not the point of this argument. I know that is what you are trying to make it but it is not. The point is simply since the ZR1 is here why can't you have what you want and if you can't then I quit. That philosophy doesn't work. The ZR1 has a clearly explained reason why it has been sanctioned to race in GT. The other two 'race specific' cars that are sanctioned have clearly defined reasons. The Viper does NOT fall into that category of need.

There has been plenty that have gotten in the CC and the GTS, did terribly, asked me for tunes and still couldn't do anything in them. Of course they ended up quitting.

And it is about those cars as well, because if the GTS-R isn't there then a bunch of others shouldn't be as well. And that philosophy does work because this isn't a my job, this isn't something I have to do. It's something I do for fun and if the car I planned on running is singled out then I'm not running. BMW, Chevy, Ferrari, etc. all have current model, high downforce cars. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if that's the arbitrary way you are choosing the cars then I'm out.

Like I have said. This is the base for and the Philosophy of this series. The Forza Sports Car Series.

If you are heart set on a series that races all race specific cars I am ok with you quenching that desire elsewhere. I will even direct you to the few that I am aware of. I know a few of the racers here race in these series also.

A GT1 Race series - http://replicaracingseries.tk/
World GT7 Series with cars like the Viper GTS-R - http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/5704409.aspx
Virtual Motorsports GT Cup - http://www.virtual-motorsports.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=213

Those are a few of the better known Race Car only specific series I am aware of. Check em out.

SSRT DWilkerson wrote:

There has been plenty that have gotten in the CC and the GTS, did terribly, asked me for tunes and still couldn't do anything in them. Of course they ended up quitting.

And it is about those cars as well, because if the GTS-R isn't there then a bunch of others shouldn't be as well. And that philosophy does work because this isn't a my job, this isn't something I have to do. It's something I do for fun and if the car I planned on running is singled out then I'm not running. BMW, Chevy, Ferrari, etc. all have current model, high downforce cars. I'm sorry you feel that way, but if that's the arbitrary way you are choosing the cars then I'm out.

People quit every season when they see it's tougher than they thought. We have some damn good racers here. Most people cannot just join this series and get straight to the top. Some of that is on purpose and by design. Some are just that good that they come in front running. Happens every season and in EVERY series. (I do communicate with other series organizers) The CC is a good car and very competitive. many have shown promise. Often people have dropped for school, jobs, life. And for lots of people they are not good tuners. So they ask for tunes to help. Hell, I been asking a certain individual for a transmission tune for seasons and I can't get the help. So i deal with it.

As for a car being singled out. Nope it is not. It's not in because there is a car that IS in that fits more in line with the basic principles of THIS series so a secondary car is not needed to be allowed in to accommodate any lack thereof. We are all here for fun. And you were perfectly happy with your choice last when you chose the GTS last season. Couldn't wait to race it! Funny how a desire to want something else can make you completely unhappy with what you have. (sounds like my girl. She has an 2009 BMW 535i now she likes the 2012 so much she says she doesn't like her car anymore. She was IN LOVE with that damn car now she complains about it. Same damn thing here. Only want the newer hot thing cause its out there to have so somehow satisfaction just disappeared with what she has)

Edit- She is keeping her car too for at least another year.

If out of 76 GT cars to choose from you cannot find one that fits...Then I can't help you. I can assure you there is NO other series out there that gives you a choice like that. Most don't break 30! Truly, this is amazing to me that it's even this serious that even with a perfectly sound reason and explanation to why a car is not available it comes to if I can't have it then I quit. Who would a thunk it so.

Why not simply drop the Competition coupe for the GTS-R?

Like I said before, I harbor no ill will nor did I ever mean to be disrespectful. And I love the way the '13 GTS looks, that's why I drove it and that's why I drove and why I picked the CC. If I wanted to be in the fastest Viper I would have been in the ACR. Heh, the GTS-R is probably the slowest Viper out of the 4. But I want to drive it because of how it looks, and because I'm not driving the GTS again because it handles terrible. And I'm defiantly not going back 2 generations to be in the CC again. I'm sticking to my guns and you're sticking to yours.

Thus, I'm out until such a time I can run that car.

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

Street cars, turned into and developed into race cars. NEVER about the race versions of cars. Those cars are there ONLY ONLY for the reason given to keep a manufacture that otherwise has no representation in the class.

But Chevy has representation in the class. Who cares if it's a consistent front runner or not. If I had ran a Z06 I would have finished exactly how I did in the Viper. They are both low downforce, bullet cars that don't stop or turn very well. Instead, with what I'm guessing must have been a special privilege, the race version was added in and dominated every handling track on the schedule. It even ran well on the speed tracks. The C6.R won 4 out of 12 races, most of those being 1-2 finishes with close to a 1 min gap on the rest of the field.

The best cars in the series were the C6.R (4 wins), Porsche 911 (3 wins), Ascari KZ1R (2 wins), and the Lamborghini Gallardo (1 win).

They amount to all the wins in the series, minus the two wins that the Vipers had. 1 victory was because the lambo crashed into traffic and the other because of the pit road incident with the Porsche. The Porsche also had Bimmer for 2 of those wins, 2 wins that would have gone to the Ferrari.


To me, I agree with Metal in saying the PI is in a weird middle ground between race cars/hyper cars and race-prepped street cars. With the exception of speed tracks, the street cars don't stand much of a chance. I have a feeling Season 9 will be full of race/hyper cars and the true sports cars will be left in the garage. Majority of them have already been wiped off the car list (replaced mostly by race cars of course, with the exception of the Viper).

I'm not running the GTS again because I grew tired of being rear ended/booted out of the way in every turn because it turned slower than the GTC cars.

SSRT_Pronebird wrote:

Why not simply drop the Competition coupe for the GTS-R?

Then that leads to why not drop the GT2 Porsche for the Race version.
Why not drop the 458 Challenge for the F458 GT race car
on and on. It has to be limited for a clear and concise reason. That reason has been defined and is both clear and concise.

DWilk, there is no ill will, none what so ever. It's no more than a philosophical difference. I see your side and why you want it. I just hope your open minded enough to see my side and the decision that was made.

There is really only 1 maybe 1.5 people who in 8 seasons I genuinely do not like. 1 of them can never return to this series long as I have the CEO position. The other has not been seen or heard of.

Boostbeef wrote:

I'm not running the GTS again because I grew tired of being rear ended/booted out of the way in every turn because it turned slower than the GTC cars.

That is not the car hitting you that is the driver. There are many cars that have different abilities on different tracks. Being hit because a car corners better is not because of the car. Its because the driver. Thats the same as saying a car hit you on a straight because its faster in a straight line.

At this point I don't think anyone would have a problem with the 458 race car being allowed if the C6 is as well.

You've kind of opened a can of worms by allowing the C6. If you hadn't allowed it then I don't think there's an issue. It's consistent across the board that the race cars starting at that PI aren't being allowed. Allowing the one kind of changed that.

SSRT_Pronebird wrote:

You've kind of opened a can of worms by allowing the C6. If you hadn't allowed it then I don't think there's an issue. It's consistent across the board that the race cars starting at that PI aren't being allowed. Allowing the one kind of changed that.

I agree 10000000% with this statement and now regret making that decision. That is also the reason why I am now FIRM on this current issue.

Nope on any more dedicated purpose built race cars in GT. Not gonna happen. Not the Ferrari, not the Porsche, Not the Ford GT....That is a definite 100% fact.

Admin/PredatorUSMC wrote:

SSRT_Pronebird wrote:

You've kind of opened a can of worms by allowing the C6. If you hadn't allowed it then I don't think there's an issue. It's consistent across the board that the race cars starting at that PI aren't being allowed. Allowing the one kind of changed that.

I agree 10000000% with this statement and now regret making that decision. That is also the reason why I am now FIRM on this current issue.
Nope on any more dedicated purpose built race cars in GT. Not gonna happen. Not the Ferrari, not the Porsche, Not the Ford GT....That is a definite 100% fact.

thats a bit drastic in my eyes, especially not fair as well. whn i appied with it i thought full well that they were allowed as the BMW was in aswell. so all or none is my opinion

Hmmm, here would be a fair compromise to remove the definite handling advantage that the designated race car has over the non purpose built race car.

-5% handling handicap. That would be on ALL THAT I DECIDE TO INCLUDE and would be retroactive to the Corvette ZR1 also.

If that is not a fair trade off then I am not willing to negotiate this any further and will remain firm on my previous stance with this issue.