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I probably shouldn't be saying this but its my opinion and i think that there shouldn't be changes of any type once the season has been started. New rules or other regulations should only be put in affect at the start of a new season. But thats just me. Im entitled to my opinion and am not trying to start a fight or anything.

NSA Roca wrote:

I probably shouldn't be saying this but its my opinion and i think that there shouldn't be changes of any type once the season has been started. New rules or other regulations  should only be put in affect at the start of a new season. But thats just me. Im entitled to my opinion and am not trying to start a fight or anything.

Seconded. Not a fan of this mid-season change for a number of reasons. It's one thing to tweak some technical rules based on race occurrences, but to make a substantive change to the competitive structure mid-season does not seem correct. I also find it funny that this is the change arising as a result of the Le Mans GS restarts, versus a rule actually regarding restarts. Particularly when the poll last Season indicated a large percentage of the racers favored a no-restart policy to begin with.

The only rule change this season that i know of is the induction of Pro/Am which wont effect your points at all if you read the rules.

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:

The only rule change this season that i know of is the induction of Pro/Am which wont effect your points at all if you read the rules.

Ok, I'll try the more direct approach. I didn't sign up to race GS-Am, I signed up for GS. If FSCS wants to segment the field for Season XI, that's certainly fair, and then I (and anyone else who might feel slighted by being slotted in Am) can determine whether they want to participate.

If none of this is changing anything, then what's the urgency of doing it right now? I also question what problem this is actually solving. If we are so concerned about the guys in back with high P.I. wrecking the "Pros", then change the Re-Start rules. I don't see this Pro/Am vinyl thing doing anything but maybe stroking the "Pros" egos and insulting some of the "Ams". Rant concluded.

Tachyon Racing wrote:

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:

The only rule change this season that i know of is the induction of Pro/Am which wont effect your points at all if you read the rules.

Ok, I'll try the more direct approach.  I didn't sign up to race GS-Am, I signed up for GS.  If FSCS wants to segment the field for Season XI, that's certainly fair, and then I (and anyone else who might feel slighted by being slotted in Am) can determine whether they want to participate.

If none of this is changing anything, then what's the urgency of doing it right now?  I also question what problem this is actually solving.  If we are so concerned about the guys in back with high P.I. wrecking the "Pros", then change the Re-Start rules.  I don't see this Pro/Am vinyl thing doing anything but maybe stroking the "Pros" egos and insulting some of the "Ams".  Rant concluded.

You have clearly not read the Pro/Am section of the rules clear enough. You are not slotted differently. You are not scored differently. Do you remember being a rookie? Do you remember how while you were a rookie there was a separate table with all the rookies on it with each's point total on it? Well this is an extension of such a table. It is not about ego's or who is faster. It is not to single out each driver, or to create different rules for different levels of driver. You will be racing and each driver on the field the same as before. It is a way to create more intense race setting throughout the field and give recognition to the best of up and coming drivers in the series. You do not have to be the fastest driver to be slotted as pro. That is but one of the possible ways to be slotted as one though.

Say you bust your booty all season long, and you do your absolute best, and you finish 9th in points. With previous season's formats you get all of zero recognition, and in all reality you might have worked harder then the alien'esque guys at the front of the points table. With this it recognizes and awards drivers for their effort in the series regardless if they are the fastest guy on the field. I hoped that no one would have taken it as some sort of insult as it was designed with the idea in mind that Pred and myself appreciate and admire the effort that guys put in while receiving very little recognition for their extended hard work.

Again I cannot stress enough. This is simply an addition of another table of points that runs parallel with the normal points table and does NOT effect your GS points AT ALL. I also cannot stress enough that this idea of an AM Championship was made with the best intentions and hopes for the drivers specifically falling in the AM class. 

To clarify, the "rule changes" that I know of were LIVERY rules. All you would need now is a little baby sticker that says AM or PRO on, just like the have in the WEC/FIA.

P.S If for some reason something on this has been changed and I have missed it myself then i completely apologize. However, as I understand what i described above is how this Pro/Am situation will be handled and played out as that is how Pred and I wrote it up last we discussed.

Tachyon Racing wrote:

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:

The only rule change this season that i know of is the induction of Pro/Am which wont effect your points at all if you read the rules.

Ok, I'll try the more direct approach.  I didn't sign up to race GS-Am, I signed up for GS.  If FSCS wants to segment the field for Season XI, that's certainly fair, and then I (and anyone else who might feel slighted by being slotted in Am) can determine whether they want to participate.

If none of this is changing anything, then what's the urgency of doing it right now?  I also question what problem this is actually solving.  If we are so concerned about the guys in back with high P.I. wrecking the "Pros", then change the Re-Start rules.  I don't see this Pro/Am vinyl thing doing anything but maybe stroking the "Pros" egos and insulting some of the "Ams".  Rant concluded.

I myself don't understand what this has to do with restarts. we vote for no restarts but still have multiple restarts pure race.

\"SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:

You have clearly not read the Pro/Am section of the rules clear enough.

 
No, actually, I have followed this all pretty closely, as this all stemmed from your aggravation over the GS re-starts, which I was part of and affected my race as well....  After reading your rants about the "scrubs with 675 P.I." [not sure if that was directed at me or coincidence, but I am letting that go], guys in the back driving like "looney tunes" into turn 1 & 2 [funny, because obviously people were piling up in the front-middle of the field, but they are all fine, right?], and all the debate about controlling the starts/restarts, I was expecting something addressing that very issue.  But when Pred comes out saying "sometimes there is a gap too large to fill", and we're going to set these parameters for "Pros" and "Amateurs", and nothing is done to address the issue of managing the starts, I am confused.
 
I've been trying to object to this mainly from, let's call it a "stability of the rules of competition" perspective, that we should not change the conduct of the Series competition mid-Season.  But, as you're pushing the issue to more of a driver-specific debate, I'll go there.  I think this comes off as a bit condescending, to be honest.  To imply that people who are lower in the standings might not be motivated to do their best otherwise, or as you put it "The people hitting me werent in the points race, they arent at all effected by a points reduction."  Wow, talk about condescension....  Maybe being in 8th, or 12th place doesn't matter to you, but speaking personally, my goal for the Season was to finish in the top 10 in the standings.  Prior to my lag-related wreck at Le Mans, I was in 8th thanks to consistent, if not outstanding, driving, so it sure mattered to me what happened.  But, going further, say in your little example I finish atop the Amateur standings, which is certainly a possibility for me if I keep running consistently.  I was just rated as being an Amateur, but suddenly I would then be a Pro?  Or, maybe not, as the Admins can exercise their judgement independently of the criteria now being set.  And believe me, I will be the first to admit I am not the fastest driver, but after more than a Season's worth of racing, some decent performances, and [I think, at least] proving myself to be a courteous and improving driver, to be told that I am viewed as basically beyond the help of PI, is a slap in the face.  Seems kind of arbitrary, and if it doesn't actually impact the management of the races or scoring, so again, why bother?  I repeat my initial comment; I just don't see what problem is being solved by this solution, particularly in the middle of the Season.
 
Now, I will agree with one point you made about guys who aren't the most competitive in GS not belonging in GT.  I fully agree with you there, and have actually viewed that as more of an implied Pro/Am distinction to begin with.  Being in GT requires much more control over your car, both for the GT racing itself, as well as the extensive passing of GS cars that goes on.  If anything, I think a testing/rating system determining who should be in GT is in order.
 
I didn't want this to become more involved than it needed to, but at least for me, it's kind of hitting a nerve.  I'd love to hear any comments from other "Amateurs" or anyone else.  Maybe we should put this to a vote, and see what the community thinks about this model.

Hmmm. Now I feel bad about saying I liked it. My impression was that anybody that was initially put in Am could be easily moved to Pro if they wanted to. I doubt that whatever test you have to do would require anything crazy.

I really do kinda wish I could be in Am just so I could have a better shot at a championship honestly, but I don't think that's a very honest motive.

I should be considered an "AM" driver, only finished 7th in points last year because I showed up and finished every race, not because I'm a top ten driver. Oddball is a better driver than I am, but he has a shitty connection, so he's classified as a amateur. I see what the series is trying to do, but it doesn't solve the restart problem, unless you mean for the "AM'ers" to start at the back of the pack, but the problem is not coming from the back where we start anyway, or where us HI-PI guys choose to go when the chaos starts.

Or is this just gum drops to those who want to show up from time to time, because those guys are the one's not finishing in the top because their lack of participation, I don't get it.

The issue is restarts and people who cause or call for them at the drop of flag or 1st turn. If you only hit the reset button at the most extreme case of lag and remove all other reasons, including "I have 15% side damage, I need a restart" then people will be more cautions at the beginning of the race. Set a rule and stand by it, people will choose to accept it and drive accordingly or be a biatch about it and quit out when they loose aero when the bump or get bumped.

Either way, I refuse to be apart of class envy, so I will not place a separatist sticker on my car when my teammate is forced to show the world his is not in the same class, not because of talent, but because of internet connection. Power to the People!!

(God I sound like one of those left wing pinko commies, I may get my NRA membership revoked)

Tach...dont worry too much about it. There are drivers listed as "Pros" who aren't even close to that designation because they are too inconsistent, are only good on 2 to 3 tracks, or are only somewhat fast because they have a lot of pi

I were making pro/am designation there would only be one criteria.  Have you ever been +20 or over from base PI. If no you are pro if yes you are am. Period.

I personally think i would be placed in the Am class and i think i would love the chance to work at a championship without feeling overwhelmed. My ex teammate Pseudo worked his booty off and could have really deserved some recognition that this Pro/Am thing is made for.

Matthnt wrote:

Tach...dont worry too much about it. There are drivers listed as "Pros" who aren't even close to that designation because they are too inconsistent, are only good on 2 to 3 tracks, or are only somewhat fast because they have a lot of pi

I were making pro/am designation there would only be one criteria.  Have you ever been +20 or over from base PI. If no you are pro if yes you are am. Period.

its not based off of speed matt

T66MKIV wrote:

Matthnt wrote:

Tach...dont worry too much about it. There are drivers listed as "Pros" who aren't even close to that designation because they are too inconsistent, are only good on 2 to 3 tracks, or are only somewhat fast because they have a lot of pi

I were making pro/am designation there would only be one criteria.  Have you ever been +20 or over from base PI. If no you are pro if yes you are am. Period.

its not based off of speed matt

Obviously...but it should be

Matthnt wrote:

T66MKIV wrote:

Matthnt wrote:

Tach...dont worry too much about it. There are drivers listed as "Pros" who aren't even close to that designation because they are too inconsistent, are only good on 2 to 3 tracks, or are only somewhat fast because they have a lot of pi

I were making pro/am designation there would only be one criteria.  Have you ever been +20 or over from base PI. If no you are pro if yes you are am. Period.

its not based off of speed matt

Obviously...but it should be

lol i have been gone for awhile but nothing has changed shut the F Word up matt and quit being an elitist your making yourself look like a got damn fool

bigdutyDMomoney wrote:

Hmmm. Now I feel bad about saying I liked it. My impression was that anybody that was initially put in Am could be easily moved to Pro if they wanted to. I doubt that whatever test you have to do would require anything crazy.

I really do kinda wish I could be in Am just so I could have a better shot at a championship honestly, but I don't think that's a very honest motive.

To address Duty, there is no issue being shuffled around. You can easily move based on achievements, hard work, and results.

To ask why this season. This season is only half over and would allow time for the kinks to be worked out of who is where and the adjustments that will be needed to get it fine tuned.

Matt, Pro/Am is not just about speed. Its not. So the notion that only people with low pi can be designated as pro is not and will not be in the conversation as an option.

Next. This time aimed at Mr. Max. Perhaps the timing of such an idea for the pro/am is what is driving the thoughts that some of you have that this is out of anger or annoyance with parts of the field. No, this is not designed to insult, degrade, or separate the field. You will run in whatever lobby/place you qualify in just as normal. As for the notion that you dont feel like you should be AM rather than pro is a perfectly fine one. Things in that regard still need to be sorted out. Myself and Predator have been already discussing changes that should be made sooner than later. Connection issues were not taken into consideration as to what a drivers ability is. I understand that it would alter a drivers finishing position stats but that is not the only way to be classified as pro.

Now finally onto Tach. Ill do my best to through what you said and address it in a clear point by point manner. This was *NOT* created as a way to fix restarts. It hopes to improve the quality and competitiveness of the racing here. You posted in the section pertaining to restarts about the pro/am classifications. I think Hired pointed out earlier, you are in the wrong section. Next off. Why are you talking about stability of rules? You were a rookie last season and your name was in the rookie points leaderboard. Did that board change any rules of how a race was conducted? None that i know of.

My posts in the Le Mans Race thread in the forum are something i will stick by. There are indefinitely people in the series that, while they want to race are not effected by their standings in points either because of a lack of attendance or otherwise. It seems as though you are taking it personally. This was designed with you in mind, to better your racing experience. You can end the season 7th in points for the GS class and win the AM Championship. Its not like you are not allowed to race with the pro classed drivers. If you feel as though you have been miss classified and wish to be placed in pro than you can, rather than wait for one or more of the requirements to be met, could have sent myself a PM to request early advancement via the tests in place. Not everyone is going to be on the same level, not everyone is going to be in first place. Why is it so bad that the notion of an AM championship to recolonize the hard work that you say you put into racing be created for the series? You just told me you feel like you put in a lot of work and try your best to get better and have clean race results and finish well in the gs class. Is it so bad that we would like to congratulate your hard work in one of the only ways the series can?

Also, to complain about the way people are classified lets look at the real way people are classified in the WEC shall we?

FIA Driver Classification Rules and Requirements:

I think we are more then open and fair as to what designates a driver as what since these rules are much more subjective in some respects and much more restrictive in others. If anyone would like to comment further on such an issue i suggest you take it to the correct section of the forums, and if you have a concern i would appreciate a PM so that i may clear whatever issue or misunderstanding is happening. I Do believe that most of what has happened here is a direct result of misinterpretation of the purpose of the pro/am.

If you feel that the root of your argument goes back to the restart issue at hand then that is one thing that is not in my control and you should PM Predator about your concerns with the restart rules in place. But please separate the pro/am from restarts as the two are 99% unrelated and the confusion is just in the timing.

Ok, I was going to let it simmer down but I think cooler heads are not prevailing. I will try to clarify and explain the new Pro / Am designation that is in effect.

FIRST PI has not a darn thing to do with the Pro/Am designation nor should it. I have said it 20, 30 times but PI is just an arbitrary number that if it wasn't plainly visible there would be no discussion concerning it. Real racing cars are adjusted, teams and cars are given weight, restrictor plates, bigger throttle bodies, more aero, less aero,  ride height, tire width etc to balance the cars. No # exist that goes up or down when real cars are adjusted...just here in the game world.  EVERYONE KNOWS That if we took EVERY GS car at 635PI and had the same driver drive each car on the same track for 5 laps we would have some cars that put down really fast laps and other cars that would be seconds off the pace. SAME DRIVER, SAME TRACK, SAME PI, EACH CAR = Different Results   We here in the FSCS balance this CLEAR AND KNOWN performance difference with PI. We then must take it a step further because we are not all sitting in real cars looking out of the same window driving from the same steering wheel and pedals. We have several variables that real cars and real racers do not that are adjusted for. And yes THIS series also attempts to bring further balance by evening out the field by reducing the performance of the robots and increasing the performance of the rest of the field. Kinda like how a Saleen driver might be at 633 and a Ford GT driver might be at 646. One is slowed so the other has an opportunity to run similar lap times. Nothing more nothing less. Same since season 1 as it will be in Season 15 of the FSCS unless FM5 provides a better platform to balance different cars, drivers, and peripherals.

This new designation is not in any way a jab at anyone or is it as a result of any on track incident.  I have been trying to think of a way to keep the slower guys (not a slight) fully motivated and immersed.  The idea that sainted came up with of a Pro / AM category was great. It's something already in place in real racing. (where the idea came from)  Makes good sense. What it does is it gives the guys designated as Am a reason to continue to put their best effort in week in and week out as they can win a championship. Now to be completely clear on this, in life there will always be faster people, middle people, and the rest. It's the same for every sport. Everyone cannot be Lebron James, Sebastian Vettel, Allan McNish, Peyton Manning etc. There are the eiltes, the very goods, the avg and the rest. It's life. We thought long and hard about how to make a clear definition of what should define a Pro and what should not. While doing this NOT ONE PERSON was in mind while coming up with this criteria. Not you Tach or anyone else. I looked at SCCA rules, I looked at ALMS rules, I looked at WEC rules and we pieced together what we now have based on that and how we could implement it here in the FSCS.

It will not affect the on track racing AT ALL. Nothing on track or in the points will change. It will be the same as the current rookie championship. We could have a rookie come in test very well, be designated as Pro and have strong results maybe get a win. Just as we can have a racer come in test average, get designated Am, place very well, and remain Am until the criteria is met. Both are still racing on the same track earning the same points however they are compteting not only for the primary championship they are competing for a Rookie championship as well as an Am championship.  (Actually more than the Pro designated drivers have the opportunity to win)

Now We all know that a small select few drivers can get in just about any car at base PI and outrun most if not all of us. Congrats for you. However the rest of the racers are in the ball park of one another. And others who at the higher end of the limit of 775GT, 675GS and 565ST still remain off the average pace. As a microcosm of any sport we have the front runners, the pack, and the rest. This is not any fault of anyone. It's life.  Now to give those drivers who don't really know racecraft, how to be as fast without the line or braking markers, who may not hit their apexes more often than not, not confident or not fully capable of racing door to door at speed in a corner or in braking...something to strive for. Not only to improve but a championship.  

Now Tach since you are the primary one who seems to be concerned or the one who has voiced his dislike I will single you out for just a moment. NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK in any way! Really more of a compliment.
You are a clean racer, you have had no problems, I can't ever remember you hitting anyone or getting a penalty. Been here for a couple of seasons. You show up each race and do your best EVERY WEEK. Great attendance. You have not met the criteria to be classified as Pro. There is nothing personal there. Same as it's not personal if you were to hit someone and you earned yourself a penalty.  Now, If you feel slighted then as the rule states get with Myself or Sainted and if you can complete the 4 tests devised within the time of the Pro time-frame there is NO problem bumping you up.  Now, however, despite your clean racing, and showing up every week and putting the laps down you are consistently qualifying and racing at or near the back of the pack with a car that is capable of much higher performance and results at your PI. You have no shot at a championship with the previous system. Now with the Pro / Am designation you have a shot at a Championship. (sounds like an improvement to me) If you win an Am Championship then you are qualified to be designated as Pro. Or if you can meet any of the other criteria the designation will be give.  I am not trying to dog you out. I am just pointing at the facts of the matter.

I don't understand why such a simple thing as this is so controversial beyond that of maybe a few wounded prides.  But it's all for the betterment of the series.

Now to restarts. This new Pro/Am designation is in no way related to that. The restart rule has been in place since the end of last season, beginning of this season. Maybe not enforced 100% but it's been there.  With that said I as Admin would prefer no restarts at all save lag needed retarts. That way if there are first lap crashes they are clearly in the replay, appropriate action would be taken, and the penalty system would then force racers to be more patient and thoughtful in the early laps of the race instead of making ballsy, high risk pass attempts soon as the race begins. Yes, it may piss off racers who are affected early in a race. Happens in real racing. But with penalties being strictly enforced it would QUICKLY inhibit much of the thoughtless first lap bansai moves.

T66MKIV - You are in the Am class. You don't race so it doesn't really matter much though. (not even sure why you spoke up)

Just to continue to get something else started up. In my opinion Pred you should not be calling it recommended PI as the one race where i race at 746 when my PI was 747 because my build couldn't get one more PI you lower it. It shouldn't not be called recommended if you will be forcing that driver to run it or else there PI gets lowered. For me i do not think it was fair as a rule was made the following day reducing my PI. But as i said before making rules mid season seems very unprofessional to and it seems like your making stuff up as you go. But hey thats my opinion and everyone has the right to speak it.

NSA Roca wrote:

=the one race where i race at 746 when my PI was 747 because my build couldn't get one more PI you lower it. =.

I do not respect or tolerate liars. Your car can indeed run at 747 and it can be built to that pi about a hundred ways. Now if we would like to discuss how purposely building a car to sandbag and cheat the system is highly against the rules then we can. Furthermore, if you say that your build cannot reach such a pi then there is no point in having that pi as your given pi anyways. The rule is there because if you run a car at a lower pi your car will be slower. Then you race slower, and finish lower, cheating the system into thinking you might need more pi. Cars are always reviewed to check for such inconsistencies to prevent fowl play. So i suggest people dont go getting ideas.

NSA Roca wrote:

Just to continue to get something else started up. In my opinion Pred you should not be calling it recommended PI as the one race where i race at 746 when my PI was 747 because my build couldn't get one more PI you lower it. It shouldn't not be called recommended if you will be forcing that driver to run it or else there PI gets lowered. For me i do not think it was fair as a rule was made the following day reducing my PI. But as i said before making rules mid season seems very unprofessional to and it seems like your making stuff up as you go.  But hey thats my opinion and everyone has the right to speak it.

While i agree with you that pred likes to make things up i think the reason your pi was made official is so people cant abuse the system. Say im suposed to be at 650 but i build a 649pi grip car and then the next week i build a 648 speed car. Theoreticly you could change your build everyweek aslong as you were under your "suggested" pi

SVT No Brakes wrote:

NSA Roca wrote:

Just to continue to get something else started up. In my opinion Pred you should not be calling it recommended PI as the one race where i race at 746 when my PI was 747 because my build couldn't get one more PI you lower it. It shouldn't not be called recommended if you will be forcing that driver to run it or else there PI gets lowered. For me i do not think it was fair as a rule was made the following day reducing my PI. But as i said before making rules mid season seems very unprofessional to and it seems like your making stuff up as you go.  But hey thats my opinion and everyone has the right to speak it.

While i agree with you that pred likes to make things up i think the reason your pi was made official is so people cant abuse the system. Say im suposed to be at 650 but i build a 649pi grip car and then the next week i build a 648 speed car. Theoreticly you could change your build everyweek aslong as you were under your "suggested" pi

I do agree i just feel i should of been given a warning that this would of happen because now once again my PI hasnt changed for 3 races even though last week i went from 3rd to 13th. Its okay it will be like last season were i got 4 PI changes in 16 races.But whatever this is my last season so at this point i can honestly careless. if i was given a chance to correct the problem the week after i would of but a rule prevented it.

My PI hasnt changed since after Sebring. You are not entitled to a PI change every race. And if you Qualled third then theoretically you could have finished third. Therefor no adjustment needed.

SaintedPlacebo4 wrote:

My PI hasnt changed since after Sebring. You are not entitled to a PI change every race. And if you Qualled third then theoretically you could have finished third. Therefor no adjustment needed.

You are right but considering this happened 4 races ago im talking about then not now. That was just an example

SVT No Brakes wrote:

NSA Roca wrote:

Just to continue to get something else started up. In my opinion Pred you should not be calling it recommended PI as the one race where i race at 746 when my PI was 747 because my build couldn't get one more PI you lower it. It shouldn't not be called recommended if you will be forcing that driver to run it or else there PI gets lowered. For me i do not think it was fair as a rule was made the following day reducing my PI. But as i said before making rules mid season seems very unprofessional to and it seems like your making stuff up as you go.  But hey thats my opinion and everyone has the right to speak it.

While i agree with you that pred likes to make things up i think the reason your pi was made official is so people cant abuse the system. Say im suposed to be at 650 but i build a 649pi grip car and then the next week i build a 648 speed car. Theoreticly you could change your build everyweek aslong as you were under your "suggested" pi

I do not make things up as I go along. However, when a situation arises that there is no clear rule for and clarification is needed, a rule is created or a current rule is updated for clarification. If a loop hole is found in a rule that has the potential to be taken advantage of then a rule to close the loophole will be made OR a rule already in place will be reworded to close this loophole. So, NO I do not MAKE things up as I go along.

However SVT No Brakes is correct in saying that the reason that LOOPHOLE in the rule was closed and re-worded is to prevent a racer from changing his build because he was not using the recommended PI.  

NSA Roca...Since season 7 I always build a car at a respective PI to insure the build is possible when given to a racer. I know before hand that that PI is achievable and for the most part does it give opportunity for small or larger performance gain.  Now I understand how I build it may not be how you build it but the PI recommended will always be a buildable number.

EDIT IN:  What motorsport gives racers notice or warning when a loophole in a rule is found, (usually by a racer or team taking advantage of it) and then closed? None. The loophole is closed and the racers are informed that we found racers gaming the system and that has now been addressed and from the rule change date forward it's effective. Loophole closed.

Also Roca, You went from 3rd to 13th because you crashed yourself out of contention late in the race. Not because of pace.