Season 6 Race 1 - 50 Laps of Sebring

JUST an FYI these conversations are good. It helps iron out wrinkles. I don't want anyone to think this is some type of argument or something more negative than it is. Anything and everything can improve and if we can I am for it. Long as it stays within my vision of the series. That is why me make small changes as we continue to grow.

Admin wrote:

His league is more based off of Speed World Challenge or Pirelli World Challenge as it is Called these days where they do standing starts.

We are more based off of ALMS GT class where rolling starts is how it goes down. It is not the rolling start that is the problem it is the execution of it that creates the problem.

Trust me There are more 1st corner crashes with Standing starts then with rolling. I watch every World Challenge race every year since like 1995 or something. If you just use this year as an example they had some crashes that took out 5-10 cars in one whop on the first turn of the first lap. Cars would be like crashing on top of one another. Just carnage. ALMS has had no such problems. What WE need to do is just get better at not crashing on a simple out lap! THAT is the solution. Its not hard, it should be easier we are not at 'racing' speeds. Just keep safe distance and as we get a few corners away from the front straight we just simply slow it down to a safe manageable speed so everyone can get in a line with 100 to 200 ft distance per car and then GO GO GO. It just takes a bit of discipline.

Predator, the "This league is based off of" argument is getting old dude, especially when it keeps problems from being fixed. As the admin your job should be to do whats best for the league, not do what makes the league as much like the ALMS as possible.

The only reason the ALMS does rolling starts is because they are running multiple classes. Same thing for the Rolex sports car series. If they did standing starts and a prototype XXXXX up the start, everyone is XXXXXX up considering how close everyone would be, and the fact that a prototype would have to pass them. If anything this series is MORE like the PWC for the simple fact that the only cars on track are GT cars, and the fact they seem to make more performance adjustments in a season than the ALMS does.

As far as the number of accidents argument, the PWC runs more cars per race than we do and are thus shoving more cars into turn 1 than we are. Plus a large number of incidents happen because people stall on the grid, which shouldnt be an issue in forza (no reason to hold the clutch in).

And youre getting input from people whove run similar cars in series using standing starts and experienced less issues.

Chenstrap wrote:

Only thing i disagree with is i always take the first lap very conservative and take turns slower than i have the ability simply to help avoid accident due to the close proximity. I broke early and you misjudged.

I agree with your take on the way PI is set up. Helping on straightaways does nothing but make people way to frustrating to pass.

Yes, you did brake early upon replay. I should not be able to beat people to the apex, they call it dive-bombing, and yet that would of been the only way to avoid that contact, and I know I would made the apex, had there not been a rapidly slowing zonda in front of me

Chenstrap I can only say if you are so dissatisfied with this series then there are others that may please you more. Each one is different with different rules and different people. Some barely have any rules at all. Rolling starts are not going anywhere in THIS series. So you can please stop the argument over it. Others do standing, others do standing with a delay, I even know of one that does a side by side rolling start.

PWC does not have the level of performance of ALMS GT cars. PWC is closer to ALMS GTC class Porsches. Yes, we do have some similarities to the PWC and that is with my intention from season 1 to today. I follow both series for over 10 years. So this series has elements of both.

This discussion has provided a means to improve the process. That is a good step. Your very argumentative and disrespectful manner of talking is ummm not making you any friends and I request that you turn it down a notch nice and quick. I have been forgiving, that can come to a very fast end if you continue down this path.
Thanks

Admin wrote:

Chenstrap I can only say if you are so dissatisfied with this series then there are others that may please you more. Each one is different with different rules and different people. Some barely have any rules at all. Rolling starts are not going anywhere in THIS series. So you can please stop the argument over it. Others do standing, others do standing with a delay, I even know of one that does a side by side rolling start.

PWC does not have the level of performance of ALMS GT cars. PWC is closer to ALMS GTC class Porsches. Yes, we do have some similarities to the PWC and that is with my intention from season 1 to today. I follow both series for over 10 years. So this series has elements of both.

This discussion has provided a means to improve the process. That is a good step. Your very argumentative and disrespectful manner of talking is ummm not making you any friends and I request that you turn it down a notch nice and quick. I have been forgiving, that can come to a very fast end if you continue down this path.
Thanks

Bold: there are people that are having issues with the outlaps. you said you wanted to fix the problems, but you shut down both things that would end the issues (slowing it down by subtracting the outlap time and getting rid of it altogether) and just said you would use a system that doesnt get rid of the issues. the fact that we have outlap issues in practice rooms proves your "solution" wont work. Plus you fail to realize that there are issues where fault doesnt lie with anyone (minor lag spikes which happen to everyone) that can warrant a complete restart. The reason im so argumentative is because you remain hard headed with the idea that the ALMS is the grand daddy of all racing organizations. Some things need to change for the better. If you dont like to have people voice their opinion that differs from yours in a well thought out manner there shouldnt be a forum in the first place with the exception of signups.

Italics: I was not referencing car performance. i was referencing how the league itself is run. The ALMS and Rolex sports car series use rolling starts because they run multiple classes that are DRASTICALLY different in terms of performance. The PWC runs a single GT class. Which sounds more like this series to you? If you really wanted ALMS style racing, this league would have races that looked like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBPZ4-mOlyE

Underline: When was i disrespectful? All i did was post my opinion, post why its my opinion, and gave evidence that supported my opinion, as well as the experience of others. You may confuse that with disrespect. There is a difference. And whom am i not making friends with? You? I have people i race with i consider friends, i have people i race with here i dislike and i am baffled that you let them race given that they cause lots of issues, and i have people here whom ive never met before due to the scale of the thing. Im not here to make people despise me at all, but if you dont like my opinion or the fact that i voice it than it really does not bother me if you do dislike me. And if you choose to stop being nice (which probably means banning me from the forums) for voicing my opinion then go ahead, just know that your series officials (one of which wants to quit), a lot of the racers, and the racers who run their own seperate series agree with me on most of my viewpoints (not just the ones being brought up in this thread). And if im being disrespectful voicing my opinion, what are all these people who after every race start yelling at people for mistakes doing? I got taken out this week and im not holding a grudge for bernese alps over the driver that hit me, it was a slight miscalculation on his part (Laguna Seca Spurtle). But i get called disrespectful for giving my opinion. Thats disrespectful.

waits for the outcome lmbo......
The level of drivers are one reason aswell you have ppl getting a lil bigheaded thinking they are elite racers and can't be touch or passed from what I have seen even in practice there is to much crying about damage to there fender..I don't want anyone to back down but know when another driver is faster and let him by .Nine times out of ten if they have caught up to you there faster and can out brake you.

Tip for braking if you are 20-50 ft behind break a lil earlier than the guy in front so that the draft does not suck you in..it works for me for the most part.

Also I think you have so many online lobby type racers that they feel like they don't want to lose so they dive bomb to get in front.there are a lot of new guy in this series and they need to learn how to clean race someone. You know when a guy can come from some where around 40th place and get 6th the level of racers are not there yet.

Chenstrap, your completely missing the point! First, I do not care what others "think" and your opinions do not bother me in the least when they are given respectfully. However, when you begin to curse AT me and TO me is when I take notice. ( I edited out you many uses of profanity) I understand you feel you have something that needs to be said its the manner in which you say it that is unacceptable to me. I WILL not tolerate 1 person causing others to not enjoy the series because that person or a couple of people don't like something. The individual is not greater than the sum.Now there are some things you as well as your fellow racers who disagree with certain rules or procedures must understand. This is how this series is run and there are certain procedures that are not going to change. This is a rolling start series because that is how I want it to be. I have given my reasons why and explained why, if that is not enough for you then that is your problem. I learned looooong ago I cannot please everyone as admin here or as an employer to my employees or as a manager of over 60 employees. I will make a change to how we do the rolling starts but we will continue to do rolling starts. We will continue to have PI adjustments and the season will continue to move forward.As for an official who wants to quit, I have heard no such desire. However, funny thing is there is nothing keeping anyone here except that the racing IS good, the racing IS fun, and the series is successful. My goal as admin is to keep it that way.

If there are "people" that have problems with outlaps then those people should take the initiative to get people up to speed and train them to do an effective and efficient outlap. That's called doing something extra and instead of moaning and complaining you or others could be helping and fixing. Once you grasp that an outlap is NOT going away then you can begin to help. I personally don't see what is so darn difficult about 1 lap of medium speed driving without crashing.

In SCCA before you can get your competition license you have to attend a racing school as well as have been signed off for enough track events to get it. In that school one of the things they stress is on track awareness and driving in close quarters to another car around the track. One of the lessons is a lap where first two cars must go about 30 mph side by side around the entire track. No contact of course. Each lap gets a little faster until at the end of lap 3 a third car is added and you start all over again slowly picking up pace each lap. Now we don't have time for lessons here on Forza....or do we? Some have plenty of time to 'teach' the rookies how to do a safe clean outlap, teach others how to race cleaner around traffic, how to manage on track aggression to avoid the bonehead mistake. Problem is no one takes the initiative.

Just to touch on one or two quick subjects...Lag is not something I can control (nor can you) so I don't complain about it when it happens to me. Yes it does piss me off or mess with me when a car is jumpin up and down floating and things of that nature. But complaining is not going to fix it, complaining is not going to undo the damage you or I get. So I just accept that in online racing lag is a unavoidable issue that may come up time to time. I gotta suck it up and keep on racing. There is nothing you can do to make it go away so whats the point. It sucks but what!?
In racing crashes occur..I can't name 1 race that I have ever seen where no one crashed. At least right now I can't. But it's the crashes where a racer simply made either an over aggressive move that caused an accident, or just completely had a bonehead mistake (we all have them) and many like it that EVERY race series must police and penalize for to help limit such costly mistakes. It is racing ya know.

In closing...

I run the series and do ALL that is needed to make it run effectively and that takes a lot of time and effort. No small feat organizing and running a series. Stop all the complaining and stand up and help. If not shut the hell up and sit down quietly. Race or go home.

Thanks Admin.

Now I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. But wholesale change just to please a couple of people is not going to happen.

i just wanted to voice my opinion on the outlap procedure. i think the outlap is a great idea, if it was a standing start all hell would break loose, i wouldve had a saleen up my ass and probably wouldve smashed into someone else. not to mention all 12-16 cars having dynamic braking lines at the first turn would spell disaster. now to me the outlap isnt about warming tires, its about a nice controlled lap around the track so racers can familiarize with the turns, and be aware of opponents in front and behind. running it faster would only ensure a more strenuous and tedious outlap. the problem i believe happening right now is they are being ran too fast. i think a nice 50 - 60 the whole track would be perfect. the last two races ive been in the outlap hasnt warmed tires and we almost came to a complete standstill at the final turn to allow the last few cars to catch up. instead of slowing down before the final turn or wherever a notable marker would be why not just run at a comfortable pace. then everyone can stay a few hundred feet away, we are all together in correct position etc. and like i said, my tires never heat up at all on an outlap and if they did they would simply cool back down when we stop at the final turn. the outlap is the most stressful part of these damned races, and it really doesnt have to be. -_-

I think the only probably with the out lap is the ppl who feel they need to win that race in the first 3 or 4 laps and in doing so end up rearend someone. Also my biggest problem and it maybe because of the car I am driving but ppl who don't say if they are on my left or right side. I think that we should do at least 1 lap and that way it starts everyone in the proper grid order. We tried it in B room and I think it turned out great.

There should be a level playing field for the out laps. It's not fair if some rooms are running faster out laps than other rooms when the out lap isn't being deducted from total race time.

Both rooms I have been in, the room leader has told everyone to keep it to 60mph or so. That's a pretty sizable time difference if other rooms are running hard on the out lap.

There's a reason they use pace cars for running starts. For the sake of equality and fairness, standing starts is the only way to truly be fair. But for running starts, eliminating the out lap from your total time would go a long way toward leveling the playing field.

Admin wrote:

Now I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. But wholesale change just to please a couple of people is not going to happen.

Practice makes perfect, enough said.

sniper919 wrote:

Admin wrote:

Now I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. But wholesale change just to please a couple of people is not going to happen.

Practice makes perfect, enough said.

This may be true to a sense, but practice also makes permanent

OLDFenderBender wrote:

sniper919 wrote:

Admin wrote:

Now I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. But wholesale change just to please a couple of people is not going to happen.

Practice makes perfect, enough said.

This may be true to a sense, but practice also makes permanent

Well standing starts in my opinion are the only other way to go besides the way its done here. But the admin doesn't seem too keen on the option so if we have to still run an out lap we need to know how to do it the right way. What really needs to be done is a regrouping line needs to be announced so everyone knows where the field will gather.

If Im on pole be ready for a flyer of an outlap, no reason to go 80 MPH all the way but only after say the regrouping line.

sniper919 wrote:

OLDFenderBender wrote:

sniper919 wrote:

Admin wrote:

Now I am open to suggestions on how to improve things. But wholesale change just to please a couple of people is not going to happen.

Practice makes perfect, enough said.

This may be true to a sense, but practice also makes permanent

Well standing starts in my opinion are the only other way to go besides the way its done here. But the admin doesn't seem too keen on the option so if we have to still run an out lap we need to know how to do it the right way. What really needs to be done is a regrouping line needs to be announced so everyone knows where the field will gather.

If Im on pole be ready for a flyer of an outlap, no reason to go 80 MPH all the way but only after say the regrouping line.

I hear ya, I'm basically down for anything for a start of the race. If we were to do standing starts I'd be jumping people on the start every time with the gearing setup that I have and knowing what RPM to launch at. I'd only do that if the situation is safe though.

To have a decent outlap in my eyes is to have everyone in there starting spot with a 1 lap pre-grid race to get in the proper order, and in the race have a one sec (1/2 sec would be better but don't think that's an option). and have about 100 - 250 feet of breathing room between cars to avoid contact (at moderate pace, greater the speed more room you give, common knowledge of high speed driving in general. The real issue when the leader approaches the start/finish line, should have an absolute speed of 60mph/100kph so that people can close the gap and have an even playing field.

Another issue that I have noticed these past two races (plus practices), people need to be aware of there surroundings. I'm trying my best to do that (I can't be checking mirrors in all turns just so that the driver behind me may bum rush into the apex of the turn), but when someone is in the "blind" spot from the mirrors and such. SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT, don't just make the driver of the other car make a mess of themselves when a tangible object just materialized right next to them (video I made is proof of that, but Bast gave a heads up....... barely in time )

So communication needs to be worked on, I myself included.

Spurtle wrote:

As far as those of you who Lag: You know who you are. You know you Lag every race. You somehow think that its going to miraculously fix itself before every race and you won't cause a problem. When every car around you is moving around, sometimes you must look inside and spend another $30 a month on decent internet. I'm really getting tired of having to slow down not because I can't pass someone because of their car but because of their internet. And because you don't pay for it with your ISP, I pay for it with Championship points. Do the decent thing like some and sit at the back of the room and make your time up on having a car capable of running fast times without close racing required.

I agree with this part 100%

People complain how I lag out of Party chats and what not but I made sure I had a good connection for this season. I pay $70 a month for 25meg download and 3meg upload internet. speedtest.net says my connection is 19.5meg. Granted it is from Charter but I strongly urge EVERYONE if COMCAST is available in your area GET IT.

First off why are we chatting on the Sebring 1 chat? lol

Anyway, it's a new day I have already said what I have to about the subject. We can talk about it forever, it is simply a matter of difference in opinion. It happens all the time.

The SOLUTION at this time is this... Prior to each race the room will do a 1 lap run making sure that everyone finishes in grid order. Then for the race which will be set for 'Lobby Points' order the room delay will be set for 1 second and the outlap will begin will be at a reasonable pace, not full on race pace but a brisk pace. With the delay there should be no reason to get 'all up on the bumper' of the person in front during the out lapp. If you feel you are getting close just back off a bit. You don't have to slam on the brakes just slow it down keep distance. Once the Pole position driver gets relatively close to the last corner or three before the start finish he will slow it down to about 60 -80 mph to allow the field to bunch up SAFELY behind him. From there it will be normal procedure.

I will say this, trying to make 4 positions into the first corner sounds good in theory but usually leads to an accident or making the situation worse. Use the start of the race to get yourself warmed up, the car warmed up and your mind ready. We all know at the beginning of a race the adrenaline is running pretty high and this is why accidents happen. With a standing start the mad dash is really a super mad dash with even more urgent desire to hurry. Well gotta go.

I have posted the results of this race on the Forza 4 Motorsports Forums Racer Lounge Results on FM4 Forums

Racers, are welcome to post there also. Keep us in the limelight. If racers chat there more fans are generated. ( I am still working on getting Turn 10 to participate by giving something to top 10 or more.)

However I am sure everyone knows they are always viewable by clicking the appropriate button on the SERIES WEBSITE

i just had a quick question about this race, i DNF'D on lap 34 i believe and i was 7th or 8th in the A lobby. i ended up with 18 points. not quite sure how this works so i went into the rules to find out:
DNF Rule: If a racer completed more than half the race and DNF out that driver will get 1/2 the points for the position for which they DNF out.
could you please clarify this for me? once again, i'm just wondering how this works i'm not nagging at all or anything lol, thanks.

DNF...is last place. The only people a DNF finishes in front of is another racer who DNF'ed earlier. For example if racer A DNF on lap 15 and racer B DNF on lap 24, racer B "finished" ahead of A simply because he completed more laps.

So you finished 53rd which would have given you 30pts. Since you DNFed past the 1/2 way mark you get 1/2 your points for a DNf=15. I will adjust that. I see what I did I divided what lap you quit out on instead of your points. It has been adjusted and I have gone back to recheck points and check for any other errors and only found 1 for another racer by one pt and that also has been adjusted.

Admin wrote:

DNF...is last place. The only people a DNF finishes in front of is another racer who DNF'ed earlier. For example if racer A DNF on lap 15 and racer B DNF on lap 24, racer B "finished" ahead of A simply because he completed more laps.

So you finished 53rd which would have given you 30pts. Since you DNFed past the 1/2 way mark you get 1/2 your points for a DNf=15. I will adjust that. I see what I did I divided what lap you quit out on instead of your points. It has been adjusted and I have gone back to recheck points and check for any other errors and only found 1 for another racer by one pt and that also has been adjusted.

ooohhh i get it now thanks! i got caught up in the wording a little bit :p